T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Bamboo sings 'I'm a little teapot short and stout ... here is my handle, here is my ... _Other_Handle_??? FUCK. I'm a sugar bowl.' 
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'WORLD BANK WHISTLEBLOWER says COMET ISON IS NIBIRU'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'woohoO! first comment!'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You cheer Tigernuts on and wish him good luck!
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'since reboot'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'better to be the last to comment'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there hasn't been anything newsworthy of late'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you'd have to scrape the barrel pretty low, such as flordia couple take town to court for banning their front garedn'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'have you got anything to add, Zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'banning front gardens is the result of the opinions and desires of a few rich arseholes interfering in municipal orsinances'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(ordinances)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'all such ordinances constitute unconstitutional 'takings' without compensation.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'likely those arseholes with a vested interest in forcing the poor to buy produce at the supermarkets (in which they and their crook associates invested)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the government limits what you can do on your land apart from criminal or tortious behavior it is taking some of your property rights without compensating you for them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you have no property rights'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't get me wrong, we should have a large measure of property rights, but we don't, simply put'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade THWAPS Tigernuts for being a moron.
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well the constitution and the fifth amendment would say otherwise'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the constitution is dead, people have allowed it to be eroded. However even outside of the US, people no longer have property rights'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they sure do in new zealand'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'do they pay property tax?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i think only nonresidents do'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(Tigernuts is a mole working for the crook rich, seeking to discourage the poor from asserting and insisting upon fair play)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he isn't and is doing no such thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but there, we're being turned into a world of renters'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and regardless of the errosion the constitution still remains, even if our current scotus doesn't enforce it properly'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's nothing to do with your scotus'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you've had your constitution nibbled at since 1913, but accelerated in 1963 and worse since 2001'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the 1st, 2nd, 4th are essentially overturned'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts seems eager to state "if i told you once, i told you umpteem times, you have no rights!!!  So fall down, go belly up, then assume the worship position in readiness to kiss rich arse." (very loosely paraphrased)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well you don't :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what can be done about it is a different matter'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'dunno why zade is constantly railing against free markets, free markets didn't cause the worlds issues, corporatism, despotism and centralism did'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is "constantly" lying about what others are stating'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'only one telling falsehoods tonight is yourself, Zade :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is likely to be hardpressed to find anything where this "zade is constantly railing against free markets" (when those "free markets" are properly regulated so that crooks and the incompetent are unable to defraud others in the name of "free markets".)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are no longer free markets'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'regulated or otherwise'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but when somebody criticises the "no longer free markets", Tigernuts attempts a gainsay that those critics are against "free markets" - that is crook debating by Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'my position is entirely self consistent, i support the existance of regulated free markets, but the fact is we don't have free markets. People like you blame capitalism for all the worlds ills when it isn't capitalism, it's corporatism - it's basically corporate socialism'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'with a bit of luck China and USA will nuke each other into the stone age, then the rest of us can have some peace and quiet'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"Inside Job" (documentary 2010) was a partial eye-opener'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that seems unlikely since their economies are so intertwined these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Tiger, I'm afraid your debating days are over here on aard if that happens.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no doubt'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'can't see any other way of resetting this, short of a major conflict'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there isn't the public capability to change anything'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so that is your solution: WWIII  (instead of merely an ominous hint)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the world is dominated by sheep'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's about the only solution with any chance of working, Zade. If you have a workable alternative, let me know'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the solution is to colonize space'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and besides, it's coming anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how will that help anything?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'as Emmanuel Lasker said "the threat is greater than the implementation". '
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'new frontiers new shifts in power, new governments forming etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'space colonisation is centuries away'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i doubt it'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well stop doubting it, it's true'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it but even if it is a century or two away it is still the solution'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only possible exception would be the moon'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'rome lasted 8 centuries or so'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'orbitals will probably happen before moon'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well if you're going to frame it as something that very long term then you might as not concern yourself with it, since we'll all be long dead'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i was interested in within-the-decade solutions'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there are none'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then the centuries solution will also not come to pass'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'if (some) humans believe that space colonisation is the answer to the humasns ruining the planet, then those humans deserve to be euthanised'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ruining the planet in what way zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the planet only has value to and with respect to humans'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree with zade in the sense that running away from a problem, or pretending it can't be solved, or just giving up... isn't a solution'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate what problem am I running away from?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your perceived problem of a poisoned planet'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'uhm I am not sure how to parse that one'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'can you be more specific?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade THWAPS Emm for being a wannabe moron (for stating "ruining the planet in what way, ...?")
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'zade said that peopel who believe the only answer to humans ruining the planet is space colonisation should be euthenised'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'im really serious what "ruining the planet" are you talking about?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all the problems that space colonisation was a panacea for'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'fukushima? global warming? fracking?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or the domination of the many by the few?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that was where we started and what you were referring to'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you people talk in to many vageries. If you want to discuss real problems and real solutions you have to be more concrete.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i can be as concrete as you like, but ideology isn't concrete'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want my solution, you'd tear down your federal government and return most of it's powers back to the individual states where it belongs, instead enacting country-wide policies by encouraged participation rather than dictat, you'd stop trying to police the world and tear down all laws that didn't adhere to the constitution '
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for the UK i'd leave the EU and start retooling the public in terms of how to make things, grow things, and be productive citizens, alongwith reducing the population gradually over a long period of time'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and you think this would solve anything? you think the state governments aren't just as corrupt as the federal?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if one state government is corrupt, it's 1 out of 50, not the whole country and considerably easier to do something about'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if the federal government is corrupt, which it is, you're all fucked'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'money wins all political games in the end'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's harder to game a distributed system'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, and we all need to cancel these bollocks co2 targets, ban GMO crops, stop pumping pesticides and other chemicals into the water table and stop eating crap'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the congressional district maps (which are entirely controlled by state governments) seem to give the lie to that assertion tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so basically you are working in a hypothetical world where you have the power to enact whatever you want, rather than reality'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you won't have a panacea, emm, i said merely that it is harder to game 50 states than 1 federal government'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you want a plan of action? that's a different question altogether'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the context is: "were i advising god, i be inclined to euthanise (most of) the human race if the human race ruined the planet (but that scenario of euthanisation is likely to happen in the scenario where the human race ruins the planet (loss-loss-win?)--- the trick is to euthanise those humans responsible for the unjustified needless ruin of the planet) [there may be exceptions where the planet must be eliminated] [Vogan hypewrspace bypass perhaps] [deus irae maybe]"'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to get from A-B, you either have to convince an overwhelming amount of the population (impossible, they're mostly dumber than a box of rocks), or you have to kill them all, or have a revolution'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't like your odds on any of those'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the whole political system has been set up and run to ensure that it remains entrenched'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(Vogon hyperpace bypass)'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'governments never get better, they always get worse until such a time as there is a revolution'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so the real solution is for those who aren't dumb as a box of rocks to get ridiculously wealthy and start doing something about particular issues that are dear to them'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that won't happen, the masses are there to consume and to maintain the momentum of the entrenched government'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the masses will, as a class, get poorer - as has been the experience over the last generation'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does that have to do with what I just said?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a rebuttal'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in what way?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think the masses are, generally speaking, the ones that aren't dumber than a box of rocks.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't think they are not the ones dumber than a box of rocks, so you do think they are dumber than a box of rocks'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'so many negations'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the masses are, for the most part, the ones that are dumber than a box of rocks'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'agreed'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'though there are plenty in the halls of power too, useful idiots'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so responding to my assertion that the real solution is for those that aren't to get rich and work on the issues they care about'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's also unlikely to happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'with an assertion that the masses will continue to feed the entrenched system is not a rebuttal'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the system i gamed to ensure that there are no challengers'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it happens all the time'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i must have missed that'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'look at bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bill gates, elon musk, warren buffet, all just so happen to be on the same side - the establishment'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they each have gotten fabulously wealthy and are using the wealth to work on problems they care about'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'here's a newsflash for you, bill gates doesn't give two flying fucks about your rights, he would happily burn you and your entire bloodline if it furthered his personal ambitions'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he's the epitome of evil capitalism'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats actually not true, I know from personal experience, but it is becoming clear that you are not worth debating'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he always thus, apparently a decent PR company can work wonders'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nothing Bill Gates does is without an eye on personal ambition or profit'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'including giving away billions of dollars to fight malaria in africa?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which he doesn't get anything at all out of?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wtf does that have to do with the price of tea in china?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'africa is an emerging market worth many hundreds of billions of dollars'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'here is a newsflash for you NOONE has ever in the history of the world done ANYTHING which they didn't believe to be in their best interests if you define best interests properly.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it wasn't be putting him on a pedestal'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'maybe some of the stuff he's doing will be beneficial, is it outweighed by the harm his business interests are doing over there? who can say'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'does he care about solving the problems we were talking about earlier regarding rights, governance and freedom? definitely not, he views them as an enemy'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he believes in a technocracy where people's rights end when he and his ruling class say they do'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are talking out of your ass.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'really? what's bill gates stance on the 2nd ammendment? what's his stance on illegal spying, drone strikes? Does he believe people have the right to put what they want in their own bodies? Does he believe people should be choose to organise their own health affairs?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you'd have to ask him on most of those, but that is hardly the point'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's exactly the point, he's is a technocrat, he prefers corporate fascism as a means of governance'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'my whole point was that instead of railing against a system that is not going to change anytime in the next few decades you should work inside the system to make the changes that you care most about.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'everyone who has ever tried to change the system from the inside has found one of 3 things: 1. you can't, 2. you get killed, or 3. you get consumed by the borg'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think you are attributing your perceived opionions about what senior executives of fortune 500 companies believe to a particular individual you know very little about.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so we fundamentally disagree on methods. You (naively imho) believe you can change the system from the inside. I believe the only means of changing the system is to tear it down from the outside'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bill gates' opinions on these things are quite well publicised'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't believe I can change the system, I believe i can make changes from within the system that make the world a marginally better place'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you on the other hand would rather just impotently rail against the system and accomplish absolutely nothing.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'So we will both achieve nothing, the only difference was I was honest about the outcome'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, you are not honest'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm always honest'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wrong, I will be achieving many things, whether they make the world a marginally better place to live or not remains to be seen.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the Tigernuts defeatest talk is extremely dishonest'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why is it dishonest, zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bah, Tigernuts feigns clueless'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can't just go around calling people dishonest without any kind of accusation, much less proof'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd like to know who all these people are working to make things "better from within"'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'You are pretending not to recognize Zade's inherent correctness and superiority. Obviously if you were honest, you'd admit it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: '/sarcasm'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at Dispel Majic.
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have given you 3 names, but there are many many more'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but you seem to be focusing on the political game, which is an ultimately unwinable one for most purposes'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they are not working from within to make things better, but working without for their own agendas, that's not the same thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so Hitler was working from within to make things better'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'by my criteria they are doing good.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is, the world is a better place to live thanks to their efforts'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts boggles at the concept.
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is they are a net positive in terms of social value.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what have they done that has been of social value?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'countless things, for example elon musk has pushed private space travel forward by leaps and bounds'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'vanity project'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'things done for vanity can still cause a lot of good in the world'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you were pointing to things that improved social value, space-x has not done this'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'even if we grant that it is a vanity project does that somehow make it less socially valuable?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade mutters "darn, somebody may require to texch the topic of 'decent debating 101' in this channel - but don't bother in regard to the trolls feigning clueless"
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course it has'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not socially valuable period'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'okay im done debating tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you have no clue what you are talking about and no desire to engage in honest debate'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you've mentioned bill gates philanphropic issues, i'll give you those, even if they are only counterweighting some of the dodgier stuff he's done'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'well Xyliz, here's your first lesson - attacking someone else's character, as you continually do, is not really part of decent debating.'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're done because i don't value space travel or space colonisation as a viable solution to the earths problems? then you try and invent social value and attach to it as a means of justifying your choice?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could have just said "i like space travel"'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who is Xyliz?'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'l'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like being married to Elon Musk is a dangerous job'
T3/r7/2013-12-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'either way its pointless to debate him, our premises don't match.'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-12-memories-offspring-impacted-parental.html'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'it seems like a new age crap but there..'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just when you thought the economic mismanagement of the UK could get no worse, the Prime Minister is in China trying to organise a free trade agreement'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks, obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'I didn't know Obama was the UK's prime minister. Learn something new everyday.'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, the US has it's own free trade clusterfuck called NAFTA, North American Free Trade Agreement'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'signs you up to allkinds of shit with no congressional oversight'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'speaking of the US, did you hear about the guy who got arrested for trying to pick up his kids at school?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yeah, saw it'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he'll get off and there'll be a law suit, but they won't care because it comes out of taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'did you hear about the guy getting audited because he found an Obamacare-approved plan he could afford?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'didn't hear about that one'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ronda: 'why isnt the american people getting angry with the police?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'american people are too stupid to'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your country isn't alone with the high stupid count, don't think i'm picking on your arse'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'this guy was dying of cancer and he ended up losing his existing insurance because it didn't meet Obamacare standards.  He could not afford an Obamacare plan, and he figured since he was going to die soon anyways he'd just pay the tax penalty at the end of the year.  He ended up telling his story on a radio talk show, and an insurance broker listening was so moved by the tale that he called up this guy and found him an approved plan he could afford.  Problem solved, with some feel-good cheer all around, right?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'wrong.  The IRS found out about this, and they decided to audit this dying man taking advantage of their healthcare program and they also decided to audit the broker as well.'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the media (and the left of politics) in my country is spitting bile because the London Mayor drew attention in a speech to the fact that while widening income is a problem, greed and envy are important motivators. He also said no matter how equal opportunity is, 16% of people will have an IQ under 85 and 3% an IQ over 130'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the media and political left were spitting chunks over that, it was all quite amusing'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well the IRS have full access to all the obamacare info, it's built into the system, so it's not surprising they audit'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'Boris Johnsom?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'Johnson *'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ronda: 'talking about iq i saw the video of black friday shopping'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'why would they audit the tax broker, though?  HE was getting audited because someone else was, not because the broker bought insurance.'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'cos they can?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why did they audit tea-partiers setting up foundations/charities/movements?'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the IRS is a political weapon of the democrat party to use against those who would seek to oppose the centralising power grabbing ways'
T3/r7/2013-12-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just like any other government department'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'NFL should be boycott'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or just dispensed with altogether given it's just a brainwashing outlet for the regime, and it's lame'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'what if you personally enjoy smashing people until you both have concussions'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'play a contact sport that doesn't have political tentacles, such as rugby'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hell, even boxing'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'boxing is totally scripted'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the complaint wasn't about scripting'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'there's nothing wrong with concussions when you have got them enough to think everyone else is dumb. trust me'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'so scripted people actually die from bleeding out in their brain :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'yes.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well 84% of the population are dumb'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's just a statistical fact'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'american football is a good sport, pretty slow paced at the professional level, better at college'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'american football would be fine, just the nfl's political leanings and propaganda pushing are distasteful in a sporting event'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than nfl being a lame form of rugby'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but each to their own'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'rugy different type of athlete/skill set'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'what are the nfl's political leanings?'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'What major US sport isn't involved in politics?'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'it's an economic giant, always will be political'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'best boycott it then'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'Most of your billionaires are probably going to be involved in politics in one way or another'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'exactly, there is nothing inherently wrong with politics'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'anti-guns, anti-military (they actually rejected some ad that featured a company that had a rifle as their logo, it was a vignette about a soldier getting back home to his family)'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pro-obamacare'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'the company actually offered to edit out the rifle logo, but no dice.  The NFL said it was sending the wrong message.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Swedish police are in hot water after making a list of Roma people'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'decision makers right to do so, it's a company, manage their image how they see fit'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and that's why it should be boycotted, Ehrsul'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sw'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why are the news channels trying to spin the Paul Walker death, trying to claim that the Porsche Carera GT was difficult to drive'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'he was amazing.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not a tricky car to drive, if you drive like a lunatic on badly maintained public roads, yes, you'll come to grief'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'what do you drive?'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'me? i drive a diesel astra'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'well, if you drive something with 600 hp and a lot of torque, it's pretty easy to either fall victim to human error, or mechanical error'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'so happens if either of those happens in a fast car at any speed, it's usually pretty bad :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, not at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at normal road speed you are unlikely to die in a 1-car wreck that renders the car destroyed in a fireball'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that requires abject stupidity'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'that depends on if you can get out, Tiger.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'driving on the edge on a race track is dangerous too, but mitigated by gravel traps, runoffs, armcoves'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'it could just as easily been a mechanical issue as it was a driver problem in that incident'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'not enough info yet'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for the accident to have been that fatal, speed was the issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'regardless of a mechanical or driver fault'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'dunno, i drive a car fast enough that could easily get myself or someone killed over something as innocent as over accelerating in a turn and spinning it'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'takes a lot of control, experience, people eff up, wreck cars like that, a LOT heh'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think you'll find the Walker crash was a result of hitting an immobile object at well over 100mph'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'that's all, so slow~'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'thought it was supposed to fast :('
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i rarely drive to work in the winter without seeing at least a couple of wrecks or upside-down-car-in-ditch, or bmw facing backwards out of a hedge per week'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'ice is tuff'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'only for stupid people'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'depends on the car'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts is agreeing with that the soul of Hans person again...
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'many drivers seem surprised that winter comes every year'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you get double points for a bmw or audi'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'heh can tell you don't respect your own vehicle or the risks by the way you talk about it, like you're an infallible driver :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ehrsul: 'same reason why everyone gets in wrecks, they just don't think it can happen to them..'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nobody is infallible'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'not infallible, just smarter about driving in inclement weather.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at the soul of Hans.
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not sure i follow the logic of "you must be a bad driver because you diss other people's bad driving''
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'see, when it's rainy/snowy/icy, I slow down and put a lot of distance between me and the next guy.  Many people around me seem to be under the delusion that it's not ____ outside so they can just come zooming in like in the summer droughts.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you get people in thick fog here drive with no lights on, overtake, drive up your arse, all sorts, Hans. It's quite scarey really'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'you have idiotic behaviour in traffic everywhere all the time. It just becomes more noticeable when it's bad weather.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'first snow storm of the winter here you get one person doing 5 MPH on damp roads and one person 60 MPH around a curve into a ditch, people are usually pretty level headed by later storms, a few people impatient but not too bad.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in bad weather, when it multiplies the risk'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'do you also have the SUV folks who think that just because they have 4wd they can andretti the interstates?'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, we just had SUV drivers blocking the roads taking their little shits to school when they should be fucking walking'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'yeah they think 4WD is great at high speeds, where it doesn't help them that much.'
T3/r7/2013-12-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: '...in one of the fewer than 60 bills passed by Congress this year, one dealt with a tweak to the IRS tax code to rename one section in honor of a former senator.'
T3/r7/2013-12-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK government today announce year on year tax rises to infinity'
T3/r7/2013-12-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'essentially bringing the 40% rate to eventually cover all earning'
T3/r7/2013-12-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what with a 20% sales tax, property taxes ranging from $1200 to $3000 a year, employment tax of 18%, it's not good'
T3/r7/2013-12-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news< Sarah Palin claims Martin Bashir's scalp'
T3/r7/2013-12-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ooh, and it turns out that world peak oil was reached in 2005'
T3/r7/2013-12-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in tonights' news, south africa's longest lived terrorist dies age 95'
T3/r7/2013-12-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'ok,  can someone actually explain to me why nelson mandela is so great?  i don't know anything about s. africa or its history'
T3/r7/2013-12-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'you could move to a city with a bookstore and buy a book on the subject.'
T3/r7/2013-12-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'or move to a city with a library.'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'type id stone, you can hold it and it will give you those bonuses'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'sorry, misstell'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'mmm, fried up a raccoon yesterday....caught it in my house cat trap.'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'i've  watched a lot of science lately. what if 2 black holes slammed into eatchother. what happens?'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'they merge?'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'how?'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'what if you put an aardbag inside an aardbag...same sitch'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dhampir Jutduli: 'they merge into a larger mass blackhole'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'they still have a huge awesome.. they.. should obliterate.. vanish.. dust cloud. no holes'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dhampir Jutduli: 'its not like matter and anti matter.... thye just combine'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: '100m km/s hole + another. why the heck they have to stay together'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'because they're drawn to each other'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'its fishy'
T3/r7/2013-12-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'slamming 2 suns together gives a huge blast. slamming 2 bholes 3x the mass of our sun does nothing'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'well, you would need the energy output of a massive of a few black holes to be able to slam two stars together.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no need to bring in the university...even einstein had theories wrong...'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'Switching only if the average of the two remaining cases is higher than 10.5 results in an average amount won of 10.4705 ovev 2000 runs'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'nah, i just wanted to know the country :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'but oh shit, university of chicago...they're the ones that invented "the new math" being taught in elementary schools :P'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sure and even fields medal winners had the monty hall problem wrong before it was demonstrated to them'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wow my first ignore on aard'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'ooh, all mine are offline (if you mean people ignoring you...I don't ignore anyone myself)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'are you convinced by the statistical analysis? :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no I mean person I am ingoring'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'Azima'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'ok, so in monty hall the host reveals a bad door. suppose the DoND host revealed say the 5 lowest amount cases after you made your original pick. what would that do the scenario at the end of the game? anything?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yea but anyway madcatz did as you asked, and proved that it's still the same'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'er Aizma even'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yes endtime'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that would change it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and make it so switching is better'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'if the host could make calls in DoND, then that WOULD change things, endtime'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'Only difference between my script and the actual game is instead of eliminating 18 of the 19 remaining cases, I just picked one of the remaining 19 left to be the "last case"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'but that's not the case in DoND'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'thought so Redryn. this is beginning to make sense to me I think'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'I'm assuming that's OK'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wait what was the expected value of switching only when the average value of the final two cases exceeded the average value of the initial cases?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'with cases 1-20 (ev of 10.5): Switching only if the average of the two remaining cases is higher than 10.5 results in an average amount won of 10.4705 ovev 2000 runs'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'over*'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '- 5'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a kilo of shelled mixed nuts now costs over $30, but inflation is only 2%'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods quietly to himself.  What a wacko.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks, obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you're welcome'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'inflation has been high for a decade'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'consistently 5-10% since the mid 80s'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'in other good news, the US labour force is shrinking enough that unemployment goes down'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course, put everyone into university or onto disability then the unemployment 'rate' goes down. Did the same thing in the UK from the 80s onwards'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's the employment equivalent of sweeping crap under a carpet'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'it's all because of the marvellous recovery!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the 'recovery' driven by households taking on more debt to spend money they don't have on slave goods from china that they don't need? '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'and as long as no one looks at silly things like total number of employed people/hours worked/wages paid, markets go up and all is well'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a recovery requires you to make stuff, no amount of bringing in nazi health provision in order to cut people's wages to open up more part time mcjobs that don't pay enough to live on will create a recovery'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Household_Debt_Relative_to_Disposable_Income_and_GDP.png'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Barack Obama is a closet Republican (and or puppet), perhaps even a Libertarian closet Republican (and or puppet) -- Tigernuts is supposed to be praising Barack Obama -- but Tigernuts is likely prejudiced against that which Barack Obama is'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only thing accurate in there is the puppet bit'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'obama is neither a republican nor a libertarian, nor a liberal, nor a democrat'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'his personal politics are authoritarian and socialist'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'be hard to prove that contention, Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'look at his history'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'While I consider it highly probable that Obama has a decent collection of skeletons in his walk in closet, I doubt whether they are particularly republican'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'most US Presidents are "auhoritarian"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'most US Presidents are "authoritarian"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's probably not true'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'democrats will tend to authoritarianism, pre-NWO republicans would not'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'some presidents, like the most recent ones, are interested in expanding presidential power, others not so much'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty much most presidents since eisenhower, tinada, possible exception of reagan until he got shot'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I was just about to mention Eisenhower as the most recent example of presidential self-restraint and whatnot'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tinada meeps! Maybe you should too!
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the "incompetent" track record of President Obama is "explained" by the conjecture that Barack Obama, giving lipservice to socialism (incompetently) is a Republican mole and or puppet of the rich (republicans)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can find wrong in any little thing, but I think everyone can agree it's got substantially worse since Bush 1'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the "incompetent" track record of President Obama is "explained" by the conjecture that Barack Obama, giving lipservice to socialism (yet being incompetent as a socialist), is a Republican mole and or puppet of the rich (republicans)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'is Obamacare likely to be successful from the perspective of most USamericans: if not, then a Republican mole succesful sabotage'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'when Obama, with a majority in both houses, decided to go "partisan" with Obamacare development, Obama was either stalling until the conclusive majority was lost, and or ***clueless*** as to how implement Obamacare (but decided to bring in "Obamacare" as a sop to the democrats), and or was a closet Republican mole'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there may be alternative explanations as to the Barack Obama incompetency ...'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Barack Obama seems to like to hire and appoint into important positions from among those that were actually responsible for the financial collapse'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps almost as though Barack Obama is saying "Who better to appoint to important positions of finance than those that ruined the the finances of the USA -- at least they knew what they were doing when they were deliberately ruining the USA -- that is valuable knowledge." (and in 2017 Barack Obama may be looking for an extra "golden parachute")'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps Goldman Sacks is up for the Congressional Medal of Honor from Barack Obama -- xchan'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Barack Obama reeks of lack of foresight and gross incompetence ... unless all that Barack Obama did was deliberately done with full foresight -- but that may be an exaggeration - perhapd partial foresight and full intent.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'since this is a debate channel, who's going to defend Barack Obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'nobody?! .. you expletive racists!  ;D'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'wait while i catch up.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'meh, i don't understand enough to defend.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the 2010 documentary "Inside Job" was an eye-opener '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'do you prefer bush?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'i'll check it out when i get the chance.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'lukesmart, he's not saying bush was better, just that obama is either stupid or a republican mole.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"Inside Job" indicates that all the USpresidents from Reagan to Obama are responsible for the deregulations and the financial ruin and beggaring of middle-class USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'in short, they're screwing the people?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'eh I watched a documentary about big corporate companies paying to minipulate laws.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'what would motivate that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'in order for you to become rich, another hs to become poor'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Faceater: 'Incorrect. Another, or many people, have to spend money. It's not the same as becoming poor.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'well your money goes somewhere if you become poor'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'lukesmart, i'm seeing that where i am, actually, a slow shift that slowly causes imbalance in finances.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Sakage: 'and your money goes somewhere else if your rich, you still have to pay even if your rich.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the rich became richer because of the "Financial Collapse" and deregulations -- the wages and earnings of middle-class USA was steadily eroded'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'under what justification?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'what is the average salarie/wage in north america or USA?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'salary*'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the wages and earnings of middle-class USA was steadily eroded from before and during and after Reagan through to Obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'that explains nothing much.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'that is what at least two documataries of 2010 are stating'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'that is what at least two documentaries of 2010 are stating - and those documentaries explain a lot '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'i didn't watch them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'could you give a synopsis or something?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'those middle-class USamericans previously living in houses but are currently residing in tents, likely do not even own a functioning tvset to watch the documentaries (either)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade refuses to be trolled
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'ok.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'so how was their pay eroded?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'meh, i should probably not ask, i'm pretty much floundering in the dark.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'lol'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your money doesn't have to "go somewhere" to be poor'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your means of making a livelihood can go, or your money can be devalued'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'yeah, you could not be getting money at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but in many cases the loss of livelihood, loss of wealth power, or loss of wealth period can be laid at the elite holding the puppet strings'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i.e the corporate elite and the government - i consider them one and the same thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'in RSA our mine workers get 2k more than public school teachers'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well yeah, you've also got white folks living in fear in secure areas thanks to western meddling'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'nothing the back of a bakkie can't handle'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you've also got the world media fawning over the death of a communist leader in your country'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'bakkie/truck'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'oh your one of use:) thank the lord^^'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'you're'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'and us...'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'he's not much of a communist, not directly though...'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'he was considered a terrorist in US until a few years ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'the previous government was'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'who?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Mandela'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'ahh, thanks.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'people have conspiracies that he made a deal with the previous president upon his freedom'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'until his release from prison after being turend, really'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what, the previous president that he then made vice president?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'in that way we might have been corporatlely'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'no'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'vice president was another anc member'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'african name I can't get to hahaha'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Mandela became head of a Government of National Unity dominated by the ANC  which alone had no experience of governance  but containing representatives from the National Party and Inkatha. In keeping with earlier agreements, de Klerk became first Deputy President, and Thabo Mbeki was selected as second'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'ah yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'he kept de klerk vice...'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'what a fool'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he flipped his alignment from russia to USA while in prison'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'he went to prison for leaving the country without permission.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'I think he went to more than just two countries'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anyhew, like most things the truth being peddled is way different to the truth'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'current US inflation rate is 8.5%'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'our country has local stations ft. mandela'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: '24/7 for the next 8-7 days'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yeah, best turn it all off'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'there is absolute jack, on television'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unemployment by official measure is a smidgeon short of 24%'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-emp.gif?hl=ad&t=1386344618 shows you how they have been actively manipulating figures since 2010 to make it look like there's an improvement'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'lol'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'if you were a south african, you would've known that many years before 2010'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, you see, people are still in denial'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'note that Tigernuts reports figures that are suspect since no location was specified (SA, UK, USA, elsewhere) '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'US unless i specify otherwise, zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'do you know of greenpoint stadium?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not familiar with it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'Zade, note that 'debate' channel has become right wing talk radio in MUD. They tell each other the common lies because they WANT to believe them'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such as?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'it was built prior to 2010 soccer'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'Such as YOU TN could ever be factual. Just spin. ALL spin'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such as?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'I'l get the stats now for you'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'We have been there before TN. I have learned you will just weave new propaganda around any corrections. No use. Enjoy'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'such as inflation being 8.5% or household debt increasing after 2007'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'inflation -is- 8.5%'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: '*snort*'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-Inflation-by-year.png'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25152556'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'NM I will butt out'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Official inflation, as calculated by the most recent incarnation of the BLS method, is low-ish.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your chart doesn't even tell you what measure of inflation it uses'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: '"the total debt figure is not adjusted for inflation, and the Bank of England has pointed out that - relative to income - debt levels have been falling."'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'from your source'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'ah airheads'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'your source doesn't exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'sorry my internet is slow, some issues with my provider'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given that incomes have not increased, their assertion that it has fallen relative to income is false'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'the inflation data I provided: "Consumer Price Index (CPI-U) which is compiled by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and is based upon a 1982 Base of 100"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'eh hehehe wikipedia is a very reliable source'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom shows otherwise'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'it's much better than tigernuts simply claiming things that aren't true'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ahh, so it's based on the first "fiddled" inflation rate introduced in the early 80s, not the second fiddled rate introduced in the 90s'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'WIKIPEDIA IS A BLOG!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'idk i have no idea what you guys are arguing about'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'inflation numbers vary a lot depending on how you calculate it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and governments tend to prefer tweaking it to appear lower'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'arguing about the fact that neither whig nor izoc understand that twice the method of calculating inflation has been fiddled to make it lower'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'probably'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well not probably, it's true'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'I understand perfectly well how inflation is calculated. The fact that you don't like how it is discussed in the mainstream doesn't mean you can throw out garbage numbers.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'Redryn, it is just SPIN. Note the times quoted, intended to tie the lies to Carter and Clinton'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people have used the raw statistics used by the governments and run them through older inflation methods and they ALWAYS come up higher'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'TN is just spinmeister'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'search 'zapiro greenpoint''
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'spin?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'Nod, the common lies picked up on talk radio and FoxLiarNews'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'what part is spin'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that inflation numbers are tweaked?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'ALL'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'heh'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'that inflation is 8.5%, that UK household income has gone down over the past few years'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'not spin, lies'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they're not lies'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Izocinoc: 'he "spins" it by using his own measurement system'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'I regularly listen to these sources, so I can recognize the lies when put out as 'facts' on the internet'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'nothing new here'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm sure the anti gvmt tweaks the inflation numbers to look higher than they are too'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'there are lies, damned lies, and statistics'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'but you're still getting shrewed by your government:P'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'he even claims Mandela supported the Soviets. Same claim as was made about MLK. See any pattern?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/50-years-of-the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-analysis/sty-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income.html'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'Next: Obamie the commie'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'but mandela did'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'so waS de klerk the vice'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'and tabu the other'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'tabu went onto president as black people didn't trust the white president'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'before 5 years tabu was kicked off presidency'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'he was litterally thrown out of parliment and a job'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'Let me appeal to your sense instead. How did Soviets treat ANY black people? How does Russia treat them now? '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'likely or not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'what?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i see no reason for or against without further information'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so i've provided sources and figures to back up my assertions, all Whig has is name calling'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but countries are not stupid to be generally racist'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm surprised he hasn't accused me of being racist, that'll be his next step'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'they will support whoever is politically advantageous'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Whig: 'NM, I am gonna play aardwolf and ignore this nonsense a whi'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the 2010 documentaries stated that the rich (1) paid academics to determine how to beggar the middle-class USA, (2) got Reagan elected so Reagan may commence the deregulations, decrease taxes on the rich, increase taxes on the middle-class, (3) paid the later politicians (through to Obama) to do more of the same, (3) convinced SCOTUS to permit corporations to "buy" elections, (4) deregulated the media so that the rich may order media to be unbalanced with blatant lies (lie! or be fired), (5) deliberately orchestrated the financial collapse to beggar the savings and pension funds of middle-class, (6) convinced SCOTUS to overturn a conviction for financial fraud, (7) convinced Obama to be incompetent, to appoint from those that advised or caused the financial meltdowns, to pass further deregulations, (8) ..'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'make your own decisions but being openminded is important imo'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'no one has a monopoly on truth'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'now he's giving up and is going to ignore the convenient truth because he has -nothing- to refute it with'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'what was the argument anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty typical leftie who sell his fellow man into slavery just to be trendy and feel like he's on the winning team'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'uk citizens getting fucked?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'everyone's getting fucked, redryn, different shit, another day'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'our glorious leaders here in the UK are chasing a free trade agreement with China'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in the USA (and the UK?), the rich seem to hold an oligarchy on broadcast lies'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in terms of mainstream media and newspapers, yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'asians will dominated the 21st century'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you either have the corporate propped media such as Murdoch/Fox, or you have the regime funded media like BBC, MSNBC, CNN'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if we don't have ww3 by then'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not really anything new there, just becoming more overt as things become polarised'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'non-sensationalist news doesn't sell'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'facist!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that and it's a business, so 90% of the news is just centrally produced'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since that's cheap'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'real journalism requires effort, trained staff, risk and cost'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'just ignore the opinions and get facts'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'e tv owns e tv'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, let the media tell you what to believe, much easier that way'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'most media outlets still present the underlying facts'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'I mean what you guys call e tv news?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'well not only that, but most people aren't real interested in watching the real news but more interested in watching stories about natural catastrophes and a random person getting abducted'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'e tv news shows our news to U.S.A but we hardly ever get any news from U.S.A'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i is genus'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'mis'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people can't look at news, people look at the news and expect the vendor to tell them what to think'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'really they want the vendor to tell them what they're already thinking so they can feel virtuous'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn nods at Dispel Majic.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'people like to be told what they're thinking'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such as Whig, I bet Whig has never read up on inflation, how it is calculate, and how it's formulation has changed over time, why, and what effects it has. Instead it's just easier to believe what he's been told, to attack the messenger, ignoring the fact that he's being intellectually slothful by not looking it up'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm prone to it too! :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we're all prone to it, it's called advertising and propaganda'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'screw that intellectual thought, i'm here to pup and pk noobs'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and you're all outta pups?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HelpanImm Penthesilea: 'we knew that, what else is new?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't require rocket surgery to look shit up'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'no, but it requires being open to the possibility that what you know isn't necessarily right'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'but then you're stupid to be gulled'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a bankruptcy judge ruled that Detroit's pension funds can be raped as part of the city bankruptcy issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'is the city yet required to pay the rich creditors as much as possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not required by law, but by precedent - corporatists profit above people'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'if the city does not require to pay the creditors, then the city does not require to rape the pension fund'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it will be forced to pay the creditors, of course it will'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'yes rape is very harsh'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'I say the only people who deserved to get raped are molesteres pedos rapists'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'stfu with the irrelevant trolling, Lukesmart. go to the sick jokes channel'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pot. kettle'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'fundholders should be the last thing that should be hit. should have been such for the bank screwjobs too, but you know full well that financial crisis are just another way of the ruling elite to deprive the working public of money and power'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'excuse me a moment while i remove the last dregs of human compassion (must play the part of the .. kettle or pot ?)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'that bankruptcy judge sb impeached, convicted, and sentenced to hard labour '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the judiciary is littered with political appointees that will judge based on their affiliation agenda'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you'd have to have a nuremburg style affair for the whole lot of them'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'do you approve of the Paul plan for rejuvenating Detroit?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'no news-hannel here until i sign up for a cable connection, likely in early spring when the snow is gone'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/08/police-state-county-censors-government-employee-who-dares-criticize-obamacare/'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so much for the 1st ammendment rights'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'although the government employee is not supposed to be expressing private opinions from a public office'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's their job'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's also an example of selective enforcement of a policy (not law)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in local news recently, the Chief of Police was expressing an opinion that Memorial Day organisers exclude bikers from Memorial Day services (which after some flak from Mayors office, the Police Chief stated was not an official request but a private opinion)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'net result was what?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the police chief was likely doing that urging to protect the undercover cops infiltrating the biker gangs -- if the bikers attended Memorial Day services, some clueless friends of the police may recognise and give the undercover cops a cheerio greeting'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'no net result, merely a news item'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'almost reminiscent of the song "Signs" by the Five Man Electrical band'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, First riots in Singapore in 30 years'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'stick it to the man!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as many as 7 out of 10 doctors in california will boycott Obamacare, a report reveals'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'what will the other three do? :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'have more business'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'probably be pissed off at the reductions in payments and boycott it later, or just retire, or move'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I hear physicians only have to take a 40% pay cut or whatever to participate'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/2540272#.UqLPd42Zl8I.twitter'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'america, best care. most expensive!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'certainly most expensive, almost twice as high share of GDP spent as typical western european programs'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'move to where - a country where the doctors earn less than in the USA -- interesting concept'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news, in the UK, a report revealed that thousands of peopel are being denied access to elective surgery due to lack of funds'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want the best care, you need the money to pay for it, unfortunately it's as simple as that, and it doesn't matter which country you live in'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'except N.Korea'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'let's see what doesn't work. A single payer system does not work unless you're a small country with considerable wealth, either from natural resources or a sovereign wealth fund'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a controlled mandatory marketplace operated by corporations doesn't work except as a gigantic cash syphon'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'its just a tax on the young..most people i know are just going to pay the small fine and call it a day'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'an unregulated free market where government dabbles with scraps of cover for the poor but everyone else is left to the mercy of the insurance companies doesn't work'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what are they going to do in future years where that small fine turns into $4300?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(and ps, let's call it what it is - a tax)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'as americans, we worry about this week not 3 years from now'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'a taxi?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think i've spotted the flaw in the american outlook'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'you say it almost as it's perfect'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not american, it's the political outlook - UK government do it the same - they're looking between now and the next election onluy'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'business do it too, quarter to quarter even if the long run is worse'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they will usually have a longer term strategy too, though'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'some things you can do on a small timescale, infrastructure and governance isn't one of them'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"elective" is seems an adjective to describe .. cosmetic, optional, by personal choice, by election lottery, unnecessary, .. '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anyone else see the slightly odd rant (possible mental breakdown?) of the democrat rep?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'don't diss the republic man'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in reference to surgery here, it refers to something that isn't life threatening Zade. Things like hip replacements, back surgery'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whose republic is being dissed, luke?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'better a flawed and mostly destroyed republic than a crazy overcrowded island presided over by inbred german royalty and banking whores'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Prince William does look jewish, but that does not mean inbred'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'what the fuck did that come from?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is taking potshots at the British Royalty '
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nothing wrong with that'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i thought you of all people would support ousting supreme rulers who rule by virtue of their family'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'a decent monarchy prevents communism'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'where has it prevented communism?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in Great Britain'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what make you think it was the monarchy that prevented it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'it didnt help in Russia'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(cue klaxon sound)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and the russian ones were related to the british ones by blood anyway :P'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the russian aristocracy were corrupt and debased'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'you mean there is aristocracy that isnt?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts beams a smile at Homer.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'was about to quote the same'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Queen Victoria was by most accounts a decent sort, but even she used to get her back door kicked in by her Indian manservant'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'With great power comes overused cliches.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the french aristocracy were callous and depraved'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most aristocracy are callous and depraved'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I can't think of any hereditary aristocracy with any meaningful power that isn't corrupt and callous'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'not necessarily'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'the only differance is that the French were pwn by the peasants, and the peasants got to write the history records'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i'd confiscate the crown estate and hand it back to the people from which they stole it from in the first place'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'that may beggar the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'and who did they steal it from in turn? Actually, how did anyone come to own land or estates?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why? they can still be figureheads if they like, still rattle around buckingham palace, dumbarse japanese tourists wouldn't know any difference'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'i say tax the extremely rich'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was stolen by billy the conqueror's tax collectors after 1066, and again by Henry 8th, probably some others'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the usual arbitrary seizure, bit like american mortgage companies are doing right now'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Billy?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '"William"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'right'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'you think the people william the conquerer stole it from acquired it peacefully?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'some was conquerored, some was settled'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'i say tax the extremely rich, especially when their earnings are resource-based (the pwople are supposed to benefit from the resources, neither the rich few nor the exploitive foreigners)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at that early time, quite a lot was settled'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'if it was settled, it was because the prior owners had been driven off'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there were no prior owners'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'like hell. it's been settled for a long damn time, and groups of people drove each other off the land in dribs and drags for ages'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'it's not sensible to steal anything based on that their great great great great grandfather stole it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or lived there over generations'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'nods, homersimpson'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'so? the current owners have had it for even more generations'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, so that justifies wholesale arbitrary usurping of peoples properties?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'nope, but it does justify not going back and trying to figure out who the potential descendants are of someone driven off the land a thousand years ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'well, dig up some anchient king and blame him for it then'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i wouldn't do that'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'besides, Tigernuts, you do not deserve a say in the British affairs (since you are not 100% British)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you'd not be able to track descendants, you could only split it, sell it and/or split the proceeds amongst the population'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'which would give everyone how much again?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'and in what way would that make any sense? how is it theirs?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'then perhaps the brits should also hand back all they stole during their centuries of colonialism?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'deb already did, elf'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'note that Tigernuts is talking like a Communist, talking of confiscating from the Royalty and giving back to the people'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'crown property portfolio alone is worth over $14bn'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'which divided among the population of britain would give them about 220 pounds'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Tiger, everyting? How do you give back freedom to ppl that lost it? Or give back order to a place that was without turmoil before brits and was in turmoil when they left? It soon becomes an impossible task to sort out.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i wouldnt mind 200 pounds worth of cash'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lukesmart: 'what about flesh'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't, ElF'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only solution is not to invade places and suck them dry in the first place. UK kinda learnt that and stopped, the US are still going'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'we made a business out of it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'splitting it up would give a negligible amount of cash to everyone and set a really terrible precedent with respect to confiscating property for the 'greater good' - one of the stupidest ideas i've seen.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'great business, you're now bankrupt :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'empires ALWAYS go bankrupt'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'come collect?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '220 pounds per citizen is pocket change -- i say let the Royalty keep the crown property portfolio, and deport the Communists attempting to foment sedition and treason'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade looks wryly at Tigernuts
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well if you want the royalty, you can have them'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'we have plenty of royalty here'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Iceland recently wrote of a substantial amount of it's people's debts'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'off*'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i guess when all you have is a land of ice you can be nice'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'it was very popular in the rest of the world'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'alternative to confiscating the Crown estate is to turn it into a sovereign wealth fund'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'no, both alternatives are theft'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'it's theirs, deal with it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ok, so guillotine it is then?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'but they are rich, no fair'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'sure, dig up old king george and chop his head'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'which george?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'all of them'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'just to make sure?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thinking if you want to tax the rich, Zade, you're going to have to tax businesses on their national turnover not their profit'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'maybe 20% of profits or 1% of turnover whichever is higher'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Harperon: 'going to need a small guillotine for the new george'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nah, Harperon, just do what the Chinese do with all the extra babies they confiscate at gunpoint from women who already have a kid - render it down for spare parts'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'or you could adjust for all financial/ip type transactions and say that if related profits were taxed at at rate of less than 20%, you have to pay local taxes anyway (with some deductions, of course)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'would be almost impossible to track, Tinada, i was trying to come up with the simplest solution possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the British Royalty are popular in the UK, and in the world'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'the problem isn't that creating the relevant tax legislation is extremely complicated, nor is it that civilized nations can't track the relevant types of transaction'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and they never will be able to'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'it's more a case of all the great powers have their own little loopholes and favoured tax havens'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'so that you can legitimately move your profits around, and no one is trying to stop you'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Confounded CeriQ: 'The problem is that as soon as you try to rewrite tax legislation, you'll get corporations who sponsor senators threatening to withdraw support if they don't vote the way they want.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'all this silly double irish, dutch sandwich kind of stuff is easy to stop if you really want to'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Confounded CeriQ: 'The entire system is corrupt, and the only ones who could possibly fix it are the corrupted.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'the problem is the "really want to" part'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, it's actually not easy to stop'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'cant change anything, don't bother reading about it.. just keep living'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there is an entire industry who specialise in finding new ways to get around existing tax laws. It will -always- be a cat and mouse game'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hence just tax turnover'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just like tithing'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'well, from a legal or accounting point of view it is not hard to stop those types of tax regime arbitrage, from a political point of view it has so far been impossible'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not true, Tinada, you could never have a political system responsive enough to ban each individual avoidance scheme as it came up'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'at any rate all the stuff you read about in the newspapers is easy enough to stop given international transactions'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you would have to physically monitor and investigate -every- foreign transaction to deduce it's validity to achieve your end'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's just not practical'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I don't need to ban any and all schemes, I need a principle based legislative system and rules that tie down typical types of profit'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or make the tax system such that there is no material gain in gaming the system'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'the difficulties of creating the legislation is seriously overrated, and that is, imo, one of the marketing tricks of the evil side - "this can't be stopped anyway, so don't bother trying"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'heck, give me 2 weeks and I'll write the rules myself, I've studied enough international tax law'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'while there are countries, you won't stop it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Well, I agree that it may not be politically possible, but technically it is entirely feasible to stop the legal tax planning.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'where you have a business distributed across multiple jurisdictions, it's not possible to untangle where the money is made'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'flat rate of corporation tax 20% of profits or 1% of turnover based in that country. Job done, save all that money and effort move onto the next job'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'It is, however, possible for each nation to implement global taxation regimes with rebates for taxes already paid. Given international agreement, there simply won't be anywhere to hide from that kind of rule.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there'll never be such a global agreement, and neither should one be attempted'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'perhaps not, but the difficulties lie in politics, not in law or accounting'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all the difficulties lie in politics'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'american congress has a 10% approval raiting.. 75% will get reelected.."congress sucks, but my guy is good"'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in a perfect world we wouldn't need police'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'it wouldn't really take more than, say, the US implementing that kind of rule aggressively, and it would happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yeah, because the US isn't run by greedy corporations who would stop such a bill dead in it's tracks'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'however, the US runs the #1 corporate tax paradise in Delaware, so fat chance of that happening'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: '..which makes Obama complaining about Cayman Islands olympic class hypocrisy, or maybe he really is ignorant, who knows.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tinada shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'FARTBONGO 1!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'while you're at it, can you tear up our stupid tax code and replace it with a simple flat rate income and sales tax?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(and raise the minimum wage)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'lol?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'flat rate isn't the way to go.  The hard part is figuring out how much income you own on, not the tax table.'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'flate rate is -always- the way to go'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'companies making record high profits, paying their empoloyees what the market will allow.. min wage is a farce'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'if there was a demand for a job, it would get paid more'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are more workers than jobs, Grugach, that's kinda the point'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'it favors the rich more than the current system is that the goal?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'chinese rule it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'too many people'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's what happens when you export your entire manufacturing base to China and your entire call center base to India'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'we are importing people on h1b visas now adays too..'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'getting sanjay and his family into america under the pretense of working for a company..you better bet he will work for cheaper and love the company'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because your government is packed full of greedy corporate stooges and complete retards'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'and we run the world..kinda scary when you think about it'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and how'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people only don't like flat rate taxation because some twerp leftie thinks it's unfair for everyone to pay the same proportion of their income in tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'leftie?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'wouldnt it be the rich that would be againsta  flat tax?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the richer are supposed to pay more (not less)'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the ultra-rich are against flat rate tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the richer would pay more, zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the greedy rich are for paying far less than the flat-rate-tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's a problem with the current system, not a proprosed new flat rate system'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i have a cpa i pay a good amount every year to make sure i pay the least amount possible..free market!'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'which tax system is the most fair?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'flat rate, clearly'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'and the proposal to tax the extremely rich merely 20% is yet too low a tax-rate'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'and I think that the poor are against it the most'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the rate is entirely dependant upon the funding requirement, Zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'they believe, or at least here, that tax should increase with income'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'well they are poor, obv they arent too smart'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that is because they don't fully understand the problem, ElF'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'someone who earns minimum wage here pays a higher proportion in taxes than someone in the top tax bracket who doesn't dodge tax, this despite the fact that a minimum wage earner pays no income tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You smirk.
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'but rich people buy more things and pay more sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'are you suggesting a graduated sales tax dependant on how much you spend?'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'no doubt you have the ideal solution, Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i'm sugessting i pay more in taxes because i buy more stuff'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'might be you do, that's part of the reason poor people pay more in tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd love to meet Prince Charles'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '1'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/video-game-news/10506017/NSA-and-GCHQ-spies-operated-in-games-including-World-of-Warcraft-and-Second-Life.html'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'are Whig and Zane spies?'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a new members-only supermarket is opening 20 stores in the UK. It will sell overstock, end of line, and mispackaged food from all major supermarkets at 66% of RRP. TO qualify for membership you need to be on one of a number of welfare programs'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just a tad offended at this discrimatory behaviour'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I'm not...some food banks require demonstration of eligibility as well'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I'm sure there's plenty of those on welfare who will sell their membership cards ;-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'tsk, you are offended because you don't get to eat defective food (or because you are eligible to eat the defective food)'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and there's certainly lots of really rich folks that got that way by pinching every penny using places like that'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nobody said it was defective food, zade, it's perfectly fective food'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'even full price food is occasionally defective'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps if the supermarkets didn't gouge and abuse right up the supply chain then there'd be less people in need of food banks and cut price supermarket clubs'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'costs need to reflect the true cost of things'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'this is why i support bringing back the milk market board, and lifting the minimum wage to £8 an hour'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, I used to work for a grocery store chain that was owned by a dutch firm which sounded like a-hole :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'Royal Ahold was the world's 3rd largest grocery conglomerate at the time, many years ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i try very hard to buy produce directly from producers these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I'd like to buy bananas directly from producers, but haven't gotten to the caribbean yet :('
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that might be difficult, but meat, milk, and veg you can, plus seasonal fruits'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'did the price of cheese and milk increase with or without the milk board -- here in Canada, milk and cheese is kept expensive by the milkboard, so i avoid milk - healthy choice - too much cheese is bad'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'nod, we go to amish farmer's market'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'milk board here ensured the farmers got a fair price. WHen it was abolished, the growing supermarket cartels forced the price down below the production cost and much of our dairy industry went bankrupt, were bought out by said cartels, or just ended up shipping in inferior milk from abroad'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the usual corporatist bollocks'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bring in flat rate tax!'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'bring in fair taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'flat rate tax IS fair tax!'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bring back high taxes onto the extremely rich - the more the extremely rich earn, the higher the tax rate (but not too high (to be fair))'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that sounds like a socialist hell and a pathway to receive less tax, zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'if you suggested a low tax-rate for the poor (or government support and no tax at all), and a flat tax-rate for the middle class with decent jobs, and then an increasing higher tax-rate onto the extremely rich, ...'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are multiple instances in both UK and US recent history to show that when you make taxes very high for the rich, tax take goes down, and when you reduce it, the tax take goes up'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, i suggest a flat rate tax for all income levels and a decent minimum wage'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anda  removal of all the regressive taxation and duties that really hurt the poor in the UK, such as local property tax, fuel duty, cigarette and alcohol duties, green levies on electric'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, and the employment tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the tax rate in Britain was ludicrous where the UK government was seemingly attempting to tax at a rate greater than 100%'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'I say cut the tax on cigs and alcohol in half... more people would buy'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there was a period where we had top rate of tax and inheritance tax at 98%'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'Apparently the NSA has created characters in World of Warcraft and Second Life in order to snoop on terrorists. Have they forgotten about Aardwolf?'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the Beatles song "Taxman" parodied this -- was the song a lie'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'already pointed that out, Tipro, Zade and Whig are the suspects'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tasty Tipro peers intently at Zade.
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess you could consider a 98% income tax + a sales tax could push you over 100'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so if the UK seems to wobble between ludicrous extremes ...'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what extremes do you think it wobbles on?'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '.. too much tax or not enough tax ..'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's too much tax atm, and too much spending'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but more too much spending than too much tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '50% of the tax take goes on the welfare budget, 50% on the health service, and the remaining 33% on everything else'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in the USA: too much tax on the middle class (which is soon going to be the poor classc, and not enough tax on the extremely rich'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you need to address corporatism and corporate taxation to solve the tax on the rich'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the rich don't -pay- income tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'US and UK share one problem, we both allowed the very rich in charge to export all of the jobs to china'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'based on UK's current insane spending, if you reduced the duties down to levels that cover their respective costs, and just had income tax, corporation tax and sales tax, income tax would need to be 33%, sales and corporation tax 20%, and even that might not be enough'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'could save a lot of money in administration by reforming the 10,000 page tax code down to under 100 :-), you'd also need to ditch most of the welfare'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, that is cruel, to starve the poor'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what makes you think any of that would starve the poor?:'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'lets just tax everyone over 65 100% they don't need it'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'they tax folk in France up to 125% of their income.'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pensioners here are among the poorest, ontuct'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so, Ontuct, you don't intend to reach 65'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'll be dead by 65, but most people my age won't be able to retire until 75'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'planning an early death?'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'the males in my family generally don't make 65'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope, but i've got health requirements that are not met by our socialised single payer health care system that rations care based on cost'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'c'mon Zade, you can't just make up assertions like that without backing them up'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'tiger: I think you need an introduction...meet Zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at you in agreement. 
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a commie NSA operative, maybe?'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, Chemosh was also suspicious that i was part of a sinister organisation - You are not going crackers, are you'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well you could alay our suspicions by answering the question :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(in a Patrick McGoohan voice) "i am not a number, i am a human."   "But that would be telling."'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well i'll take that as endorsement of my tax/welfare plans'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '"On December 3, the House of Representatives passed a bill banning the manufacture, possession, and sale of plastic guns. So overwhelming was the support for the measure that the rules were suspended and it was passed by voice vote."'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'further destruction of the 2nd ammendment'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they'd been banned for years'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'illegally banned then too'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Mr Rockefeller has introduced a Senate CyberSecurity bill that aims to do away with internet privacy'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is odd, since it's dressed up as a bill that reports to protect online privacy'
T3/r7/2013-12-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what do you think to this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CP1j04_X4Oo'
T3/r7/2013-12-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in tonight's news, Arizona man banned from Walmart for life for comparing prices'
T3/r7/2013-12-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news, Obama shakes Castro's as part of his "No Tyrant Left Behind" program'
T3/r7/2013-12-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'During a memorial service for Nelson Mandela in Johannesburg today, President Barack Obama challenged leaders who supported Mandelas struggle for freedom but 'do not tolerate dissent from their own people,' a stunning piece of hypocrisy given that the Obama administration has aggressively pursued dissenters at every turn, from punitive targeting of Tea Party groups via the IRS to the unprecedented prosecution of whistleblowers.'
T3/r7/2013-12-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess i should be glad that the UK prime minister doesn't pretend to be anything except a thieving elitist fudgepacker with an enormous inheritance and no experience of life outside the political bubble'
T3/r7/2013-12-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'where were you when congress considered doing something vaguely reasonable assuming they can get it through both houses and get it signed by the President?  (they may actually have a budget agreement)'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'have you seen latest budget bill suggested by that idiot Ryan Seacrest? (or is it Paul Ryan?)'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news, 7yr old gets permanent reprimand on his school record for kissing (concensually) a 6yr old girl in his class on the hand'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and, John Kerry makes another "John Kerryism" by criticising heavyhanded tactics by Riot Police in Ukraine, while turning a blind eye to police brutality in his own country'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '30,000 people will die in the UK this winter from cold'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'do you mean that 30,000 more people will die in the UK than would in an equavalent period of spring or fall?'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or do you mean specific cold caused deaths?'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'by the Daily Mail definition'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '"Pensioners were worse affected by the 31,000 additional deaths, which are calculated by comparing the death rates from the non-winter months to those that occur between December and March, the ONS report states."'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so the former'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thanks, no big news there.'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'makes a good newspaper headline'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sure'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'US might hit 100k this year'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but its a pretty meaningless number'
T3/r7/2013-12-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'still sad to see pensioners struggling because tehy cannot afford to adequately heat their home'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'slow news day?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than Tom Rice (Cong. Rep S.Carolina) sponsoring a resolution to bring Obama to court'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for what?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not faithfully executing laws'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'pretty sure thats one of those things he would have to be impeached for before he could be tried or sued.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's essentially what it would be, for picking and choosing what parts of his laws he wants to enforce, in contravention of article 2, section 3 of the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those americans here will know that that article defines the role of President: "He shall from time to time give to the Congress information of the state of the union, and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper; he shall receive ambassadors and other public ministers; he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and shall commission all the officers of the United States."'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper" - that is an interesting concept'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he's powerless without them'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'only in a case of disagreement between them i think'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts is agreeing with that Emm person again...
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'simialr power to the queen here being able to dissolve the parliament and call elections in the case of a vote of no confidence'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course some people these days would say that looking to the constitution as anything other than a historical curiousity is pointless.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think that, but I run into it more and more these days.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those people have a name: Traitor'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or: enemy of democracy'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think they are more likely just saying that congress pretty much ignores it these days and the courts let them so its pratically of little value'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whatever your thoughts of any issues, your democracy will work best when the rules laid down by the constitution are followed'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well yeah, it's because it's been eroded that the US is in dire straits'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'like a few years back Ron Paul asked the then speaker what part of the constitution the law under discussion got it's authority from, and she responded with "Are you kidding me?"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you'd not have (as many) foreign excursions, certainly not random bombings with drones, no NSA spying, had you been following the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that kinda highlights the problem does it not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I would say it is a problem, I am not sure it is the biggest problem we have but whatever.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's the biggest problem you have with governance'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(not policy)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you should feel lucky, we in the UK don't have a written constitution, we don't have anything to measure government against which means they get away with creeping tyranny without notice and without redress'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's quite gutting to know the US -had- the constitution but is pissing it up the wall'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not sure a written constitution is necessary to keep government accountable, and I am sure it isn't sufficient.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not sufficient, but it's certainly helpful'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'A friend of mine at law school and I have discussed several times whether the US needs a page 1 rewrite of its constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think what is needed is the occasional revolution to sort it out'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's not much wrong with the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'a new continental convention and a much more specific document'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the biggest problem with the consitution is that it is vague.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in what sense is it vague?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'like what are the "privileges and immunities" of a US citizen?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'referenced in which part?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and what does "necessary and proper" to the execution of the other clauses'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'privilages and immunities is amendment 14'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'necessary and proper might be context sensitive, but aren't vague'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'necessary and proper is article 1 section 9 iirc'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and what does "regulate interstate commerce" mean?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ok, so 14th ammendment is refering to citizenship'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'these days with the politicians favoring the extreme rich and disregarding the middle class, a "Page 1" rewrite of the constitution is likely to be a "constitution from hell, a horrid hell",'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'does it mean, as SCOTUS has since 1939 tended to answer, anything that in any way touches interstate commerce can be done whatever congress wants with?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that of course depends on who is doing the writing Zade.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'commerce between states as opposed to within a state is what it commonly means'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'presumably if there was sufficient wide-spread general discontent to kick off a constitutional convention the people going to it wouldn't be the same people in power today.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than tidying up the language, there's little in the constitution i'd change'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'almost a foregone conclusion that those with the most money to spend (and bribe with) are going to rewrite the constitution "totally in their favour"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so the guy who grows grain on his own land and uses it on his own land and never crosses state lines with it should be able to be regulated by congress or not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's as good reason as ever to defend it as it is, Zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, Emm, should be regulated by the state'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not according to SCOTUS'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then the SCOTUS is wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'because not participating in the interstate grain market affects it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'irrelevant or bad logic, Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you aren't going to be able to make a constitutional document that covers every single possibility that could exist, it lays out the basic rights, principles, and roles of the constituent parts of the government'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was made clear that the federal government provided for the defence of the country, and regulate interstate/foreign trade, citizenship, courts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not saying we can get it perfect, I am saying that we could do a lot better than we did 240 years ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could, but i'm saying there isn't a great deal wrong with it'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and if you won't follow it as it is, what's the point of changing it again?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'most modern constitutions use the US constitution as a base model, but then go on to be much more specific about protections against government scope creep.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'creep is the biggest problem you have right now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'exactly'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and THAT is what we would need to write out of it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'central government is WAY more pervasive than it was designed to be, that's why it's so dysfunctional'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm is agreeing with that Tigernuts person again...
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but like Zade said, there's no chance in hell that it could be written now in a way that would benefit the people'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think that remains to be seen'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and that's not because of any one party, but because of both'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the entire existence of the two party system is part of the problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we're subject to the same issue here in the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that really is a failing of the written document'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I thought there were actually some viable minority parties in UK though because of the whole list system'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, there isn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the UK system is set up to preserve the power of the monolithic two parties'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'exactly the same as the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'labour, conservative, liberal?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'labour/conservative'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'is the liberal party just dead?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty much, but they're essentially labour too'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'much like the way the democrats in the US aren't liberal, the liberal democrats in the UK aren't liberal anymore'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and in the same way that in the USA that the establishment machine moves to villify any third party or reforming elements within the existing party, the same thing happens here'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's why UKIP, a potential third party here, won't succeed because the monoliths unite to discredit them, same true with true reformers in the GOP like Paul'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'either that or the movements get taken over by the same forces that control the monoliths (as happened to the tea party)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the current laws of the USA are already corrupted (with the deregulations of finances and the media, with the laws handing resources to the rich at minimal financial renumeration to the government revenues, with tax rates extremely low to the rich, et cetera), so those that lipservice "defend the constitution" are merely stating "defend the current corruption"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the first few months of the tea party they were doing awesome stuff, then they slowly morphed into the ultra right wing of the republican party'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, though the tea party do seem to have split itself from the takeover arm, by the looks'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it has the benefits of being a grass roots movement'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'originally tea party was completely neutral on the social issues, or even a little bit liberal leaning on them'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but now they are run by social conservatives'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'definitely an interesting war going on in the GOP. THough it's pretty fucked up when you're rooting for the tea party as i'd prefer dealing with some slightly mad christian fundamentalists with daft ideas but who are at least honest and principled, up against corrupt corporate interests that make up what are often called the "moderate" gop'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're meaning me, and many people generally'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the tea-party is likely a "grass roots puppet movement" to support the rich agenda of beggaring middle-class USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh hush, zade, they are so not'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it wasn't originally'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the koch brothers own the tea party now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those grass roots still exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and they still hold some people in the gop, just not many'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ebut notice both sides, democrat and republican attack them'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't know what the solution is, your best bet might be to chase out the bad congressmen and put decent people in'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it were me, i'd try and take over at a local/state level and start flexing power via the 10th ammendment'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you have any better ideas, i'd love to hear it'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't have any ideas for my own country, i truly believe UK is screwed, i'd happily emmigrate could i afford it'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if there was anyplace that was better'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Chile is looking the least worst option right now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'new zealand is pretty good, but there is that whole everything on the island is deadly to humans thing just like australia '
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'new zealand isn't all that, it and australia are also both extremely expensive'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'despite a conservative change in australia, it's still pretty authoritarian and NWO'ish'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'add to the mix that it's a foregone conclusion that we'll be having a world war in the next 20 years'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think that is a foregone conclusion'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'depending on what you mean by world war'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's inevitable, china will need to expand, it'll be a fight over money'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why will china need to expand, and why woudl that matter to anyone not in south east asia?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because they will expand into the USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and because USA won't let them expand anywhere else'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I mean frankly if they took over burma, north korea, cambodia, etc. I wouldn't care a fig.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'espcially as USA's economy tanks'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unfortunately whether you care or not makes no difference'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as long as they don't go after japan or india I say let them go for it'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, they'll square up to Japan and South Korea pretty early on'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well time will tell'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'one of those two will be the flash point, it's already starting'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you've already got the posturing going on'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am still waiting for japan to become an international disaster area due to fukushima'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'all my conspiracy theory friends seem to think its going to happen eventually'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you think even if it IS a disaster they'll admit to it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'any "bad" congressman that are "chased out" are going to be replaced by those that are either rich or are funded by the rich, which likely means apprentice "bad" congressmen as the replacements - "out with the old bad, in with the new bad"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'way to non-sequitar there zade.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's already a disaster, Emm, thyroid conditions among the youth in Japan has rocketed off the charts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and the reactors themselves are deteriorating, they're not stable, they're not saved, any further large earthquake will screw it up worse'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'apprentices require funding, and that money comes from the rich'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, and they lack the expertise or any kind of plan or funding to fix it'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I was meaning more like, evacuate everyone cause people are dying in the streets type disaster'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, it won't be that bad, it wasn't that bad in Chernobyl'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but it'll be millions of people made very ill'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'my friend says that it is actually several orders of magnitude worse than chernobyl'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nah, they're wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'chernobyl was an explosion, fukishima is a slow leak'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I haven't seen the data to make an informed opinion'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i have, fukishima will do long term damage, but isn't a life exterminating event'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'true but chernobyl had only a tiny fraction of the fissible material or electric capacity of fukishima'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if EVERYTHING that could go wrong at fukushima really did go wrong it would be really bad.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if all of fukishima's fissile material were to "go up" all of a sudden, it would be equivalent to about 80% of the pollution caused by the nuclear tests in the pacific in the 1950s'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'haha'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is bad, but not world ending bad'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'chernobyl killed relatively few people directly, but has had 16 million excess cancer cases attributed to it over the last 27 years'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'fukishima will be similar'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'luminous japanese peopel'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I was pretty sure that noone had actually been killed by radiation poisoning from chernobyl'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, they did, was like 130odd, mostly rescue workers'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'hmm interesting'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people gave up their lives to stabalise it and put a roof over it, they knew it was a death sentence'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, that blatant obliviousness and flippant disregard (of the tragedies from radiation contamination) is extremely callous'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what on earth are you wittering about, zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'he might be refering to your luminious japanese people comment tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that would qualify as flippant'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i would question the wisdom of a country that builds ancient design nuclear power stations on a fault line'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, i wouldn't reccommend eating fish out of the pacific anytime soon, and if you live on the west coast under the wind path, or in the way of ocean currents from there, stock up on iodine'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well assuming fukushima never gets signficantly worse than 3MI or Chernobyl then nuclear power industry still kills less people per per decade than coal kills every year'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'coal?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as in coal mines?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'coal'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'coal mines, coal burning, C14 radiation poisoning, etc, etc. etc.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'modern coal stations output co2 and water, nothing else. There have been no reported casualties in coal stations in the UK in my lifetime, though most of them have been shut down due to dumbarse EU rules'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats just not true'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they output NOx, SO2, Lead, Mercury, etc.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'mexican and chinese ones might, british ones do not'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they have scrubbers to remove all the nasties, they complained bitterly at the added cost, but had to do it to meet new emission standards'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'http://www.iea-coal.org.uk/documents/83083/8631/Trace-element-emissions-from-coal,-CCC/203'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is no such thing as a 100% scrubber'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade suspects that Emm does not know what "non-sequitur" means, either that or was unable to comprehend the obvious "sequitur"
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the levels may be down below the legal limits (although not all of the US's are)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well if you're going to count trace levels, then no power source is clean so we might as well give up and go back to the stone age'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade I think you are lagging your comments seem to be a dozen minutes old.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats a false dichotomy tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'natural gas is cleaner than coal, wind and solar are cleaner than natural gas (even including construction)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just because nothing is perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for excellence'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'natural gas might be, but has limited volumes'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the rest isn't usable'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what do you mean isn't usable yet?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we use wind and solar extensively now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wind and solar cannot, does not, and will not ever be a solution to the UK's energy needs'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it isn't ready to take over 100% of our needs, but that doesn't mean it isn't usable'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it isn't about meeting all the needs'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ahh, but that's the only technologies they're pushing, and doing so by impoverishing everyone rather than investing in genuine scalable renewables such as hydroelectric, tidal and geothermal'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its about deveopin a portfolio that is better than the one we currently use'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well it's not better than what we currently use'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I just got a quest to kill a wind turbine'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I should fail it on political grounds?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(at least it's what's happening here in the UK) - we've closed down all our home grown fossil fuel sources, spent an absolute fortune on stupid wind turbines, we've got a crisis brewing because our energy resources are now falling to a level where it may not meet demand'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'energy prices are rocketing, old people are freezing to death and everyone else is squealing, all because of stupid laws, not because of any actual shortage'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given our energy markets are operated by a cartel of 6 corporations, you may have heard the term that is appropriate here "false scarcity"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the real answer is to attach prices to emissions and let the market sort it out.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but getting the correct prices is difficult'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that is entirely the wrong answer'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's entirely the wrong answer because that's the solution they've tried already that's failed'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if you accept that emissions are externalities it is the only reasonable solution'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the right answer would be to gradually ramp up emission targets, empower green energy with tax breaks, and use tax money to directly build green solutions rather than just raping people to give cash to Al Gore'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'unless you want to go back to the center of the earth to infinity property rights and ban any emission'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm not sure what that means'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which part?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'center of the earth stuff'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'original property theory'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that land owners owned all the volume from the center of the earth to infinity'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that their land intersected'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK is totally reliant on foreign energy companies right now, a big part of the energy solution here is to make the country energy self sufficient'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why? why not just buy your electricity from france they have enough nuclear plants to power england too yes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's inefficient to transmit over long distances, it's expensive, and it's insecure'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you need smaller scale generation on a localised basis'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and you certainly don't want more nuclear power'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'sure I do - clean and safe'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I mean as long as it is modern designs'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the french seem to be doing it better than anyone else'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not clean and safe, you still need to mine the uranium ore, you still need to store the waste forever'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'plus they aren't on the ring o ire.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they're also insanely expensive'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'stupid f ey'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I need a new keyboard'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade suspects that Emm does not know what "false dichotomy" means, unless a "false dichotomy" is a form of "non sequitur" falsely attempting to connect separate and disjoint situations and or contexts
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we live on an island, we should be using tidal and hydroelectric'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I haven't seen a tidal reactor that could produce at cheaper than 45 cents per kWh'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'am I missing something?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'even class 1 wind is better than that'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wind is $2,21/kwh'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nuclear is $1.08 excluding decomissioning and storage costs'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you have your numbers way off'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you sure you aren't thinking of dollars per MWh ?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, factor of 10 out'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'tidal is still in development phase though, certainly a developing technology'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and we have to think about what is physically available'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Harperon: 'wait you claimed wind and solar are uselessly inefficient, then you talk about how great tidal power is?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, harperon, we don't have regular sun or wind, we have regular tidal'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes tidal should get better eventual, but it is currently well behind wind and solar'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'two tides a day, every day of the year without fail'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just overbuild wind and use pump storage hydro'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we don't have the space for that, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it would still be cheaper than tidal'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you don't?????'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are surrounded by oceans!'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and 2010 estiamtes had tidal at 155-390/mwh compared to 150-210 for offshore wind'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate those seem like reasonable numbers to me'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'tidal is likely more expensive to maintain'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and onshore wind is like 60-150'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'tidal onshore is 80-110, but space is an issue, people hate them'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what generator for freshwater tida gets 110 or less per MWH LCOE?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I haven't seen anything anywhere near that good'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no idea, but i'm constantly hearing of new methods of tidal generation'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'tidal turbines are likely sensitive to collisions -- may disrupt aquatic lifeforms'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there are solutions to that zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no worse than wind power affects birds'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the noise from loud ship engines disrupts some aquatic lifeforms'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'signficantly less so tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that is itself overblown'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i wouldn't say so. you can't compare disruption between sea and air because they're not comparable. In terms of turbine affecting birds, that's ongoing work'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'then then, Tigernuts is callously flippant as per usual'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the US built enough wind turbines to meet 100% of its electricity needs entirly in migratory paths it would still kill less birds per year than the existing cities already do.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and don't even get me started on what burning fossil fuels does to birds'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the entire wind turbines kill birds thing is a red herring created by the koch brothers.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'less than a lot is yet possible to be a lot'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'studies are ongoing'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have read the studies'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they're not disasterous, but they're certainly not helpful'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'one of my classmates just did her disertation on this subject'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whose data did they use?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'pretty much everyones'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unlikely :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the highest estimates for the US are around 400,000 birds per year'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the noise from wind turbines also affects some humans -- those humans evolved to be sensitive to sound vibrations'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as compared to the 300,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 killed each year by collision with buildings'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'another red herring zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those numbers sound dubious'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is absolutely NO statistically significant evidence of any such thing.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well they are from the american bird conservatory'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'both the 400k and the 300m-1B'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i doubt the entire bird population of the uk is anywhere close to 1b'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they generally have the highest estimates of anyone who actually collects data'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I said US'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sheesh'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so if we had 100times the wind turbines we do now (which would be more than 100% of our current energy needs)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we would be killing about 40 million birds'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'assuming linear relationships'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which is still about 1/10th the minimum estimate for buidlings'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't think you can assume linear relationships, but still you'd probably need much more if you were to be 100% wind powered'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not saying the effect isn't worht studying, I am just saying it isn't worth making decisions from.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'using fermi calculations because we are just trying to get ballpark answers here tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some humans are unable to reside near high-voltage electric lines (those held high by those high metal towers that crackle when there is rain)  -- [does not affect me, but maybe i am more evolved to be unaffected, or maybe there is some other explanation]'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'still, a good MIX of sources is the best plan, but still stick by the localised distributed production using whatever is to hand and reliable. That means tidal, hydroelectric, solar, wind where it's windy, you have to use fossil fuel to plug the gaps and provide the backup'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we currently get 3.5% of our energy from wind.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'assuming 70% efficiency for pumped storage'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '5.3% for UK as of 2012'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we should need about 40 times as many turbines as we have now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'assuming of course that they were in the same class of wind zones as they are now'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since we have stuff from class 1 all the way to class 6 now that seams reasonable'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and we have no reason to believe that birds will get less good at avoiding wind turbines just because there are more of them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm is saying that killing 440 million birds is as okay as killing 400 million birds'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd rather we didn't kill any'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no I am saying that killing 40 millino birds isn't as bad as killing 400 million'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'it depends on the bird.  I'm in favor of killing 400 million starlings but not 400 million parakeets'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so before we decide to stop wind development maybe we should look at ways to reduce bird deaths from cities'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yeah can we just build the turbines in the migratory paths of crows?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'like i already said, wind isn't reliable so you shouldn't be putting all your eggs in one basket'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'isn't the logical answer nuclear?  why not 100% nuclear'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jynsuun: 'Its natural selection, birds running into turbines'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'hey, i like crows, they are intelligent birds'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Seltsimees Dagnir . o O ( dafq )
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'those darn markets and price signals'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nuclear is expensive'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'only reason we have nuclear at all is because government pays for all the decomissioning and waste storage costs'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'crows are smarter than zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's the only way it competes'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yeah nuclear without subsidies is almost twice as expensive as ng, coal, or wind'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but then if we price carbon at the current cost of disposal then coal and even natural gas become prohibitively expensive'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just get the tidal and hydroelectric going, stick solar and wind where it's appropriate and plug the gaps with coal and gas while you're developing the technology, and stop trying to fiddle the markets and creating bogus fear and laws that end up taking tax payers money and giving it to arseholes like Al Gore'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sod the carbon pricing, we already have a cost of living crisis here'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you aren't a libertarian then tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'vaguely libertarian'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you understand the concept of an externality?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's mostly bullshit'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its axiomatic'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, it's not'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'see Ronald Coase'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a tool that people use to push whatever agenda they see fit'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the target is affordable, localised energy that isn't reliant on fossil fuels,'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'energy that is safe and as toxin-free as is reasonably possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all other factors are secondary'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so if my business has to kill a few people to be efficient that is okay?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why would it have to kill a few people?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats what you are arguing for'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no I'm not'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you want energy that kills as few people as is reasonably possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'where in my argument did i stipulate that we need energy that kills as many people as possible?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'never mentioned killing anyone'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i said as safe and toxin free as is reasonably possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '" as toxin-free as is reasonably possible"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which literally means, "kills as few people as is reasonably possible"'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that doesn't imply killing people, sulphur dioxide is a toxin, it doesn't kill people'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, it doesn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'actually it does, it increases asthma deaths'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when you drink water, it contains toxins, your water supply is given to you containing as few toxins as possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think you're stepping into a realm of demanding absolutes - the world doesn't work like that'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not at all, I am just trying to see what you are willing to acept'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'even if you did away with all power generationa ltogether, you'd guarantee no deaths from it, but instead you'd have deaths from people not having power'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for me I think that the market should decide what wins, but the true price should be used'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which means that all externalities need to be internalized'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'our existing power generation kills very few people'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if any'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats just not true'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then who has died?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'coal miners die every year'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not in the UK they don't'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the # of deaths due to a host of coal mining related illnesses are higher in communities near coal mines'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the # of deaths per year from asthma is higher around coal plants'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that doesn't even get into things like mercury, lead, etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and the cost in lives of having no heating?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'electric blankets are cheap to operate'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'would probably be more'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the reduction in life expectancy from living in poverty?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate which is why you need to price everything out'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and let the market take care of the results'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're trying to drastically over-intellectualise this'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ideally you setup mechanisms so that externalities get priced by the market itself'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but that can be hard to do sometimes'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'production risks are already priced in by the health and safety laws that already exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'hardly'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'regulations do very little to actually deal with externalities'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'necessarily'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they are a third best solution'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only examples where that's not been the case are nuclear power, chernobyl, fukishima'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is one of the reasons i don't favour it'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are completely wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nuclear, while it has its problems and I don't particularly favor it, actually has a lot less externalities than coal'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not a credible statement'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'be that as it may it is a true statement.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then move to france!'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't speak french'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then invade'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also there are other reasons that france sucks'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'one is their food'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'two is their fashion'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'three is the smell'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps the poor pensioners in the UK are likely too poor to purchase decent reliable electric blankets, or there are other reasons that explains the winter death in the UK from the cold: power blackouts, lack of proper nutrition (from a diminished ability to travel in winter to food outlets and food banks)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'does it smell bad in frace?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm off to bed, whatever the solution is, it's probably not being reliant on foreign powers for your energy, and gouging already struggling public for yet more money only for that money to be syphoned off into corrupt green projects'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'can we at least agree on that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'what, the comedy hour on Debate is finished ...'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'with the end of channel Debate station seesion, the National Anthems from a few participating countries are mentally played'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'the cool kids are on gossip'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they don't let me talk on gossip for more than a few minutes at a time these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'apparently everything out of my mouth that isn't a request for a corpse retrival or a question about game mechanics is a debate.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'first, the British National Anthem: "God save the Queen", and Queen Elizabeth is looking good at 87'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I'd date her :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'for her money?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for her influence :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'be more respectful, you insolent trolls !'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'emm, you are just getting shunted to a channel that nobody has on.'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm )
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'there is only 48 of us.  2 more than the music channel'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I figured hat much'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'and 2 of those are probably imms'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I need a new podcast or netflix show to have on in background while I mud'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'any suggestions?'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'The Tudors'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'they produced a horrid "Doom" film, -- did they produce a "Duke Nukem" film yet'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Descent: Freespace - there's a great tv series, but only if decently-moral heterosexuals write the storylines and storyscripts - minimise the glorification of psychological defectives, and treat the alien enemy with repect'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'tvseries and movies are currenly infiltrated by too many perverts that believe that tvseries and or movies must be fool-mouthed, psychologically deranged, sexually depraved, and overall sickening'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'and keep religion out of the scifi moves (there is no Jesus Christ in outer space)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'coming soon to a movie theatre near you: "Jesus Christ: Space Cadet" -- xchan (no such movie)'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '... that is almost as stupid as asking "when a christmas tree falls in room full of deaf mutes, does the christmas tree make a sound"  (also preassumes the deaf mutes are unable to cry out in pain if the christmas tree falls on them) '
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'um ... if they're mute, they're gonna have a hell of a time crying out in pain'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'duh !'
T3/r7/2013-12-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'actually, "mutes" are yet able to produce horrid sounding unintelligible noises -- but maybe if they were euthanised and taxidermed to look like imitation dead baboons ... "99 dead baboons, sitting in a living room" '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not a lot in the news tonight'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'some rubbish about various countries shooting down gay marriage laws, namely Australia'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'the largest ship ever built.....the $12 billion Prelude, a floating natural gas plant that can drill in deep water.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bad news for the environment, bad news for the nonrich, ..'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'wah wah wah, go make some money then.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sounds like neutral news for the environment, good news for gas execs, neutral news for the nonrich'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Batman defeated the Penguin'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Shell Oil is planning an even larger ship to be built after the Prelude, to harvest natgas and liquify it for the Aussie/Asian market starting in 2017, and it will harvest natgas for 25 years in cyclone alley.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i wouldn't worry, Riz, Zade takes the anti-rich thing to an absurd level'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'or for 2 years until Mother Nature rips it to shreds because she can.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bad news for the nonrich (of later generations) - depleted resources'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in his world everyone lives in poverty and does nothing'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'some major natgas fields have been found in the indian ocean, and the new ship will harvest it in deep water.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wars will be fought over oil/gas reserves in pacific/chinese sea'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'nah, the ship will be designed to weather the worst cyclone in the indian ocean.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'so was the titanic.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'the titanic had basic flaws that modern engineers do not do, since billions of dollars are at stake.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the current state of human engineering is that we simply cannot design to weather the worst that nature can throw at us'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'in other news, SE Texas usually has about 15 freeze days from November 1st to March 1st......since November 1st we have already had 20.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"basic flaws that modern engineers do not do" -->  Gulf Oil bubbly'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's global warming, Rizzer, they've had snow in Cairo too'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'it snowed for 6 hours at the ranch on thanksgiving day.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'you can keep the cold weather.....I am moving to Hawaii damnit.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I'm moving there too.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I've had it with winter for now'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'supposed to get down around 20 F next week....oh joy.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'think the coldest nighttime we've had so far this winter was -2C, coldest day was +3'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty typical for this time of year'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'how often to you see the sun during winter Tiger?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not often'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'At least the drought broke in Texas....all the lakes are filling back up...and some areas are even flooded.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'tis hibertaining time'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is a mole, not a groundhog'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'and it is currently raining here in Trinity Texas....about 2 hours north of Houston.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i usually book time off around xmas to sleep'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'man, paul walker died......idiot gets himself killed in a porsche......the worst kind of car to drive fast.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i heard he wasn't driving, is that accurate?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'correct'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news, civil war in the GOP over the shit budget passed by the turncoats'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like it will be sunk by a senate filibuster'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'at least the mega millions jackpot is $430 million.....'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wooohoo!'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'hah, pirate bay moved domains yet again....that is what 6x this year ?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no idea, but good job'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'I feel as if Barack Obama is doing a wonderful job.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Being President of the United States? '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what job duties do you believe he is doing well at?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'he has a good handshake'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'he picks good dogs also.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Foreign Relations. Did you see that picture of him at Mandela's funeral? Commander in Chief, bitches. Represent.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i dunno i heard that water dog tried to run over a little kid at the tree lighting :P'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'yeah, looks good in photos'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'shaking hands with castro, taking a selfie with DC and the danish PM, or giving a speech almost as hypocritical as Hitler saying we need to be kind to Jews?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'He's trying to shake things up, man. Chill. Better him than Bush. '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'll give him credit for calming down the Iran situation and trying to get some peace there, and also for thumbing his nose at Israel'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Universal has spent $150 million on Fast and Furious 7....and only half of Walker's scenes were shot.....'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'the cold comfort of low expectations...at least he's not Bush'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in terms of job ratings, he's already at GWB levels'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think he's probably had it'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. At terms of approval, though...'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Does anyone agree with me when I say Paul Walker deserved better than to die in a red porsche? I mean seriously, does it get any worse than dying in a car offered with a free box of tampons?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i can't get excited about a random actor'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sorry'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Random? Bitch, please. He did -6- of the Fast and Furious movies. That's some pretty serious cheddar. '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's fast and furious, not exactly ground breaking cinema'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that'd be like praising Miley Cyrus's contribution to music'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Miley Cyrus is able to sing'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but society would be better off if she refrained :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Twerking is good for the pelvic region, though. She's helping people get fit -- and really, is there anything more important than that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, several'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'mm, forested'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'what, is Miley Cyrus not white enough or not black enough -- Tigernuts is prejudiced (with some likely ludicrous reason) against Miley Cyrus'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'what was the cause of the Walker porsche crash: chauffeur error, Onstar shutoff, ECM sabotage, (deliberately) defective manufacture, .. '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'early indication was driver error'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'could be a combination of driver error and mechanical failure.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'a flat tyre perhaps'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'can you guys try and do me a favour in 2014 and kick Boehner out of office?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'but i like boehner in the office'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'or do us all a favour and keep him.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how is it doing you a favour?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Compromise is the art of the possible.  At the moment the tea party agenda is the art of the impossible.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'think you'll find it's the agenda of the not only possible but necessary'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Boehner said that after the last shutdown the tea party said well we didn't expect that to work anyway.  They put us through all that pain of the shutdown, when they knew it wouldn't do any good.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what pain did it put you through?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'their agenda is politically impossible right now, they don't have enough members in congress, maybe in the future it will be politically possible, but it isn't now.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'i didnt get paid'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, in terms of that, absolutely agree'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'notice you didn't answer the question, though :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'what pain? They shutdown the parks and many other random things.  Government workers weren't allowed to go to work, but eventually got paid.  All those problems for nothing.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the shutdown didn't close the parks, that was Obama's orders specifically'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'it was because of the shutdown, Obama couldn't just do whatever he wanted.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as for not being paid, UK folks get paid once a month, my heart bleeds for you'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was because of Obama, the park police were ordered to block off the parks. It actually meant them doing overtime to patrol the parks to make sure nobody went in them. This is well documented if you would look it up'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'the republicans need to focus on cutting a few specific things.   I think food stamps are at maximmum something like $200 a month per person, you can eat on less than that while we have a budget deficit.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'put it this way, from the reaction of the US media (seemingly reflected by your comments) at the non-event that was the shutdown, i really dread to think what woul happen if there were a real crisis'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if there was a serious push to fix the deficit, you'd sort pull your military horns in, and pass responsibility for welfare and education back to the states where it belongs'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'compared to the UK you have an unbelievable amount of fat and excess you can trim. UK on the other hand is fucked'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'cut schools!'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts peers intently at Tormat.
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'and anyone on welfare needs to be steril!'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you haven't got a welfare problem until you've seen ours. Trust me, you don't want to let it get like ours. Once it's like ours you'll never be able to sort it out'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'the government shutdown was not a non-event,  The NIH (National Institute of Health) was shutdown and couldn't approve of trials to study treatments for terminaly ill cancer patients.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'trust me i just gave you your solution'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the congress did try and make sure those things were funded, the democrats wouldn't let them'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so everyone was to blame, i thought this had already been established?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I think the US does have some problems with welfare and social security disablility.  I'm not hopeful that it will be handled in a reasonable manner. (I don't trust Democrats or Republicans on this, but if they are forced to work together they may come up with something good. Likek welfare-to-work under Clinton with a Republican Congress.)'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they won't'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'both parties are flooded with incompetents'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'incompenents and career politicians with considerable lobbyish cash'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not a happy combination'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I begin to wonder to what extent the elected officials really matter at all any more in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so much is done by adminisrative agencies these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they matter to extent that they're the ones ensuring that everything remains screwed and wealth is transferred efficiently from the poor and middle classes to the uber rich, and that freedom and liberty is transferred from the people to the same ruling elite'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the fed (ultimately controlled by the big international banks) has more power than ever.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'elected politicians make a difference, one or two fewer democrats in the senate would me no affordable care act.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't have an answer for you, all i know is that you still have the capability to sort it out because you used to have a model. Where I am we don't have that chance, we've had it, aspiration is dead, we're all serfs with nothing but poverty and dependance to look forward to'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I mean when it was passed not now'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'while it looks like the GOP will take the senate, there isn't enough proper republicans in teh GOP, it's dominated by rhino's, the lobbyist, israel lobby who want to bomb the shit out of the world and push all the money to the 1%'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and to hell with the american people and their liberties'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think getting your house in order in terms of re-establishing the bounds and purpose of government is more important than welfare, foreign policy, obamacare or taxes right now. Who was it submitting a bill to force all bills to be read and passed one at a time without non-related stuff being tacked on?'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sadly that wouldn't help tigernuts, unless it was a constitutional amendment which won't happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'because the amendments wouldl all just include provisions that that rule doesn't apply to them'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wouldn't help what? it's a law regarding house procedure, it would have to stick'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as i understand it, if worded correctly they couldn't do that'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also it would probably be unconstitutional as a law'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'congress can't pass a law that congress can't repeal (or create a stone so heavy that they can't lift it.)'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since the constitution says the house gets to make up its own rules.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well nothing is subject to not being repealed, true, but it can be used to prevent tack-ons in the meantime'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i did wonder why you guys allowed that anyway, it doesn't happen here'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Pennslyvania has a rule (I think in the state constitution) that other than the budget laws some address only one subject.  It helps, but it isn't always followed. The state supreme court tends to say if you don't like it vote them out.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well if need be, have a constitutional ammendment'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I don't understand why some of the crazy things are attached to unrealated bills, when they decided to end the shutdown the last time something got tacked on for a couple billion dollars for a dam somewhere.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they were bribes, Malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'they did provide some funding for the flood damage in Colorado when they ended the shutdown, that kind of made sense, but some of the other tack-ons were just strange.'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Doth thou have any idea what the healthcare system does to thy flock? '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'makes em ill and poor, nighthaven'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'I proclaim that we set forth a new set of rules, one most like those of the greatly heralded Canada! Free Healthcare FOR MY PEOPLE! '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Utter thy name, friends! Let greatness be done unto the people! '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want to see what single payer socialised healthcare does to your taxes/spending and to the quality of care, come look at the NHS'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you won't be disappointment, provided you're a massochist'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'on reflection, i believe your best plan would have been to create state health exchanges and put in a framework that insisted all plans were marketed through it and were comparable (would involve some regulation to ensure they conformed to a structure that allowed them to be comparable) but rather than mandate people have insurance and tax people, instead put a tax on health insurance and use that to subsidise the poor. Oh, and another key element would be for the government to ditch medicare/medicaid and come out with it's own competitive health insurance packages'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'I didn't take the time to read that, but very well done. '
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps you should, it contains ideas'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'something politicians seem short on'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unless it's for ripping people off and enslaving them'
T3/r7/2013-12-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the government in Wales in the UK is looking at banning the use of e-cigarettes in public. Here in the rest of the UK from 2015 they'll force shops to charge 5p for every plastic bag they give away'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'anyone?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'I disagree with whatever you say'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'noted'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what do you want to debate?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tasty Tipro winks at Juubi.
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'how aboit exactly what we were debating on the other channel?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who was debating on the other channel?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the existence of a historical jesus?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'correct'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if you mean has there ever been anyone named jesus, obviously there has been.'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'agreed. but christmas was not his birthday'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i work with a jesus'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'no one argues december 25 was Jesus' actual birthday'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'more specifically, here has been a person around 2k years ago who we now refer to as jesus of nazareth, whom had a great religious following...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'it's just the day on which it is recognized'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if you mean was there a jewish religious leader born around 2013 years ago who travelled around and did spectacular things, there is absolutely no reasonable evidence to suggest anything of the sort'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is absolutely no contemporary evidence of his existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'that's hardly an accurate statement, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Juubi seems to think you have the right idea.
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is absolutely no contemporary evidence of his existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'except of course for the absolute MOUNTAINS of contemporary evidence of his existence...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the first references to him occur some 70 years after his supposid death'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and most of them are very questionable in their authenticity'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You smirk.
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'it was noted through texts and whatnot that a jesus of nazareth was born 2 BC'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there is no actual evidence there was an actual Jesus born circa 0 AD other than the NT, and there are contradictions as to the birth date(s) -- the Romans of the 4th century likely destroyed that evidence when consolidating the scriptures into a single version'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and tere is no evidence the NT was written before 100 AD or so'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and most of what survives is from 300AD or ater'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'a lot of what we take about the ancient world comes from sources dated much after the fact. Like many of the Grecian Wars. That shouldn't be the sole criteria. Rather, ask what was the source'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and ask if anyone has had reasons to distort, or invent, sources'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'are you to say that the historians and professors that have put together thousands of textbook supporting the birth of a jesus of nazareth who was a jewish religious leader at that time are wrong?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'and I think there is very little reason to disort. The apostles did not live glamorous lives'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'when consolidating the scriptures into the Roman accepted official version, all the earlier versions of the scriptures were destroyed when found, as those earlier versions were different to the official roman version'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'given that the churches had control of the history books for several hundred years there is really no reasonable way to get evidence about this supposid jesus figure'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'why then would this jesus who isn't real be made into a hero by an entire religion if he truly isn't real?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats an easily answerable political/psychological quest'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'then please explain'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there are jewish records and writings that indicate where the story of *a* Jesus may've originated (a hundred or so years earlier before 0 AD)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is also no evidence that moses existed, in fact there is pretty compelling evidence that he didn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but there is plenty of clearly invented evidence to the contrary'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"contrary to" what -- ambiguous!'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'this is about jesus. not moses'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but there is an example of someone who was pretty clearly created for political purposes'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there's quite a bit of evidence, secular as well as religious (christian religious and jewish religious), supporting his existence, much written close to the time of life'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so there is an argument by analogy'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'noted'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'name one text abelinc?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'written while he was supposedly alive'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'read josephus, tacitus'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"political purposes" is unlikely'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'roman records'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'please name evidence of his non-existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there are only 2 references to Jesus in josephus, one has been completely discredited as being authentic to the original, and the other is not conclusive at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'seeing as how there are almost no secular scholars that believe that he didn't exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that was written 40 years after his death'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not 100-300 years as you claimed'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'thanks abe. hard to ger info on a phone while debating'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so we are going to base his existence off of a reference to james having a brother named jesus who was anointed.'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'sounds like you're about as well-versed on this subject as you are on statistics...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nevermind that this flies in the face of the scriptures'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'good go for the ad hominem attack :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'since you've provided nothing whatsoever so far'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'how are we to truly knkw when jesus died emm?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which is why I say supposedly died'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'roman historians let us know how he died...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'which was 37 bc correct?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there are no exact dates for anything that long ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'until Constantine, the christians were being suppressed, so "Jesus" was likely not a "political purposes" -  note though that Saul/Paul of Tarsus may've overlayed Mithraism onto the original story of Jesus '
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is essentially impossible to prove a negative'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'wrong, Emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'bc/ad/bce didn't exist then, there were dissimilar calendars, and not a whole lot of daily newspapers nationally...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'heh'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'but easy to just sling statements around with no basis, apparently'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'however one can point out, 1) there is absolutely no physical evidence of his existence, no artifacts, no works of carpentry, no manuscripts written by his hand'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) I Sense Nonsense: 'You prove a seperate positive to prove a negative'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there is no physical evidence of 99.9999% of humans from 100 years ago to the beginning of time'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '2) there is no contemporary record of his existence from any source that can be accurately dated to his supposid lifetime'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'again, your claim, which is not shared by any credible secular historian...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'debate are college textbooks accurate enoigh for you emm?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'where is the record of pilate executing a man named jesus?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there's a whole lot of disagreement regarding jesus among historians...his existence isn't one of them'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Juubi nods at you in agreement. 
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is, but not much in the US because of the political climate'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not talking about religious people here...pure secular historians, recognized in their field of higher education'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'as usual i concurr'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'Although I'm on the side of Abelinc and Juubi, I don't think it's fair to ask Emm to provide evidence of Jesus' non-existence. It's impossible to prove a non-existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'best that can be asked is why she doesn't believe the evidence that does existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'flavus was born after jesus was supposidy executed, and wrote the 93 CE and there is evidence that even his limited references there are from interpolation'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'she's making initial claim, and we're asking for her to substantiate her statements'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'Nod, I understand. Just thinking back to "[14 Dec 18:41:51] (Debate) Abelinc: 'please name evidence of his non-existence'"'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'of course it looks like she's debating from http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm...and a professional site it is...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i would like to see a birth certificate. long form, if possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the existence or nonexistence of Jesus is a controversy topic - there is disagreement (but some some historians are shutting their ears and eyes to the disagreement)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I personally love this part: Many problems occur with the reliability of the accounts from ancient historians. Most of them did not provide sources for their claims, as they rarely included bibliographic listings, or supporting claims.'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'tacticus was born in 64 CE he discusses a "Christus" which has many potential interpretations'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'as if APA citations were the norm 2k years ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'hehe'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'read a history book from before 1940 and it wont have citations'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'It may have a recommended works or something but that's usually it'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it's like the guy went onto a wikipedia editing guide and tried to use that for his thoughts on ancient texts'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'hehe'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'id the history book was authored by christians, that history book is likely to be censored and biased (where nary a word of disagreement is heard as to the existence of Jesus)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'first we should get something perfectly clear. there are texts saying that jesus was a real person. and there are none for the opposing side'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'you are not looking very hard '
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Benedikt: 'juubi: are you talking about historical text or current ones?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'historical'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you disagree that Josephus only has 2 references to a Jesus in his book, (written in 97 CE or AD) and that the authenticity of these references have been called into question?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'you are likely disregarding the papers by jewish scholars'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'both...jewish scholars denounce his christhood, but don't deny his existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'give me an example zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Benedikt: 'juubi: in that case you just proved that king kong existed, because there are no historical texts saying that he didnt :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'i agree with abelinc yet again.'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and why is there no reference to jesus in the jewish wars written by the same author 20 years earlier (and beore he became a prisoner of the romans)?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'no. because there are none supporting king kong's existance :/ there are for jesus'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'was jesus influential substantial or important to tbe jewish wars?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'a history of the jewish people from 164 BC to 70 AD no i can't imagine why jesus would be mentioned in that book'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'a solid point'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'when was this book written?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '75 ad supposidly'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'by the same guy who wrote antiquities in 97 which is afaik the first "secular" reference to jesus'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Juubi: 'how can someone from 75 ad know what happened in the many years before :('
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats a good question Juubi, which returns to my original question'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why is there no mention of him in any secular text prior to 97 CE?'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in the end of course I doubt anyone will ever know for sure (baring someone coming forward with physical evidence or contemporary evidence of unimpeachable quality).'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'jesus was not a prominent figure in the jewish wars, but was a prominent figure in jewish history...so he was mentioned in the latter but not the former...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there's not really such thing as physical evidence from even 500 years ago...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'a jewish scholar stated that the historical Jesus was (likely) based on several contenders (Yeishu ben Pandeira and several others) '
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course there is abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we have plenty of physical evidence of people from thousands of years ago, granted its hard to track down physical evidence of a particular person, especially if they weren't revered in their own time'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no, we have plenty of claimed physical evidence of people from thousands of years ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but for example we have plenty of evidence for dozens of egyptian pharohs from much further ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'even the "Naked Archaeologist" provided an episode on a jewish warrior that temporarioly looked like the messiah (until the warrior fell out of favor)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and we have physical evidence of plato'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no, we have references to plato'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'through manuscripts he wrote (or at least several manuscripts that are attributed to him that were written by the same person)'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'we have phyiscal evidenve of lots and lots of people.  we just don't know any of their names'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You rapidly nod twice at Madcatz, in complete agreement.
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'can't exactly do a DNA test on this evidence without having a fully-reliable reference specimen'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it could be in a box labelled "king tut"...and it could've been the gardener for all we know'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but we don't even have that for JC'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'king tut said "fuck this shit" and traded places with the man in the iron mask'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'well, it'd be hard to claim that he rose from the dead if you could fish his body out of the sea of galilee...'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the historical jesus is likely a patchwork based on the stories and folklore of several historical (and fictional) humans - but none of them were the Jesus (of 0 AD) as described in the nt gospels'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm nods at Zade.
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'like the places he supposidy went and the order in which he visited coincide with the travels of titus flavius'
T3/r7/2013-12-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well I have exams to study for see ya later'
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the student who went into a school 13 miles from columbine the other day and shot two kids before killing himself was "an opinionate socialist", so I think the only sensible thing, using the democrat logic base, is to ban socialists or democrats from owning guns'
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'Name drama again?'
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rofl, obamacare exchange 'mistakenly debiting bank accounts''
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is the pope marxist?'
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://nypost.com/2013/12/15/inside-the-saudi-911-coverup/'
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Omidyar is a fraud, and looks like Greenwald might have sold out'
T3/r7/2013-12-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the numbers are that the budget deal will not pass teh Senate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so Greenpeace are running an advertising campaign claiming Santa is depressed because the North Pole is melting, asking people to donate..... yet the summer extent of the ice sheet went up by 29% this year compared to last'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'yeah shocking they weren't 100% accurate in a discussion involving SANTA CLAUSE :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'who should they have used, then?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i'm just being a smart ass, don't pay me any mind'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'a polar bear'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Jamie Diamond would have been better'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Bernard Madoff!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so can we safely put this man made global warming rubbish to bed, yet?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'the term global warming is misleading. the term climate change is more accurate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to describe.... natural variations in weather patterns over time?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'well i don't know how to convince anyone. seems fairly obvious to me that if you burn every ounce of fossil fuel on the planet bad things will happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, you'll have no fossil fuel left'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which isn't a good thing, tm'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'never gonna happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"global warming climate change"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is pretty muc impossible for us to ever burn all the fossil fuel'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'that was a bit of hyperbole, i realize we will never use it ALL'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: '"which isn't a good thing?"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"global warming causing climate havoc"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so would you rather a) Promote science to develop alternative non-fossil fuel ways of generating energy, or b) Instigate a bunch of laws to screw money out of people and hand to corporations in the name of man made climate change?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"global warming energised climate havoc"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'tax emissions at the social cost of the carbon (the lesser of the damage done by them or the cost to clean them up)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and let the market sort it out'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course that is politically impossible'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how about not and just promote the research and building of alternatives'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"industry added global warming energising climate chaos"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'Or C) Destroy all reserves of fossil fuel that we can tap into?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well thats a horrible idea'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'the problem is alternative forms will never be financially viable if the oil companies can externalize all the financial consequences of their product. no one is talking about banning them, but some form of carbon tax is absolutely necessary imo'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Purple HazeKnight crosses his arms and nods slowly and sagely to Endtime.
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sadly many people are talking about banning them'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Santa's elves are attempting to use the extra water from the melting glaciers to produce more ice sheets, no thanks to you Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you won't need to externalise the consequences, the cost of bringing new oil reserves to the market is rocketing'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it'll just take longer'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course, the best way to tackle global pollution and plan for a sustainable future does require doing something about the level of population'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i see what you mean tigernuts, but if you do believe in human influenced climate change it will be far too late by the time the production costs reach a point where alternatives can compete'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'Or just funding people like these http://www.laserpowersystems.com/'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'too late for what?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'too late to reverse the negative impacts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'like?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'like starving the African continent and flooding out South East Asia'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'oli resources are supposed to belong to the people -- do not give the oil resources to the oil companies at cheap prices -if they want that oil, mske them pay dearly'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what makes you think it'll cause that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '50 years of climate science research'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'sea levels are already rising by a measurable amount. It will only get worse if you can trust that even most of the scientists studying this are being unbiased'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is this the same 50 yrs of climate research that claimed severe weather events are increasing when the data shows the opposite? is it the same 50yrs of climate research which until 30 years ago claimed we were entering an ice age? or is this the 50yrs of climate research that said by this year the artic would be entirely melted and sea levels would have risen by 2 meters?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the sea levels have not risen in the UK in my lifetime (1977)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'one could argue that some of these scientist have been bought and paid for, but it's a bridge too far to say that they all have. again, imo'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'are you suggesting sea levels can rise more in one area than another?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'here ya go tigernuts http://www.skepticalscience.com/'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, i'm saying that it's a horridly inexact science and that they're mostly fitting data to their agenda not the other way around'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which has been stolen by corporatism and politics for their own aims'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats a pretty decent response to most of the bs you are spouting on the subject'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'another half-arsed agenda website?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'current estimates are around 1.5 mm per year. of course you wouldn't notice it in your lifetime. that is almost a negligible amount. but most believe it is only a beginning'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as opposed to a half-arsed agenda jerk spouting unsubstantiated garbage on the internet'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the river Thames levels were rising'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that would be half a metre in my lifetime, Endtime'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'didnt London just spend an Ungodly sum building flood protection barriers?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'The issue is that with our timelines, the true idiots can only be proven outside of our own lifetimes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are planning on living 500 years?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'even if you were 100 years old that would only amount to a little of 1/10th a meter'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sorry 333 years'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'forgot about the .5'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so this is a problem because.....'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'This is problem because you think it isn't a problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'it's absolutely not a problem for you, because you think all the scientists warning of this becoming worse are misinformed or deliberately obfuscating the issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'You are the embodiment of the use of asbestos. No long-term thinking'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'even a half a metre rise in water levels is able to translate into a lot of water coverage and flooding, especially if the peaks increase by lots more than half a metre'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hardly, the argument being pushed is that we need to panic now because the world will end before we have found alternatives to fossil fuel'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'clearly the world will not end in 20 years according to your own assessment of sea level rises'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'no one said it would'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nor will it end due to sudden weather changes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'What the hell are you arguing, Tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'Some defeatist way of living out the rest of your life?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so let's ask this again, why can we not promote science to provide us with clean sustainable solutions to the energy problem without panicking and impoverishing everyone on the planet, giving all the money to corporations that are feeding off the climate change hysteria?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate it is obviously a leftist conspiricy including the governments of such pillars of the liberal community as iran, isreal, pakistan, india, turkey....'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how do we go about doing that tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is likely a mole (with a secret desire to be) working for the greedy rich or worse [merely look at the profile of Tigernuts opinions]'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well like i said, Emm, the whole debate has been captured by corporations and governments, not scientists'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Purple HazeKnight: 'Tigernuts, we've had people trying to develop electric cars developed in the late 1950s that were mysteriously shelved'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is not my experience in a graduate program in environmental science'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but maybe IU just has a really good program.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since when does your program in environmental sciences set government policy?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who said anything about setting government policy'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you said the debate has been captured'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'did it inform the UK government, for instance, to add $200 in levies to everyone's energy bill so that they could pay German companies millions of dollars to build pointless windfarms that solve nothing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'HazeKnight, don't waste too much typing on the deaf ears of Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not the regulators and legislators have been captured (that I can agree with)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well then, that's all that matters'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I return to my original question'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what was your original question?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'the calm voices in the debate aren't calling for these earth shattering solutions you are arguing for. they want a moderate carbon tax, as this would level the playing field for wind, solar and nuclear etc. and when oil companies are making record profits, they can easily take this in stride and still return handsome profits.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how do we encourage the green energy solutions without impoverishing the world?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you subsidise and champion their development'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't rely on the private sector for that'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'german built "pointless" windfarms -- there's an unverified Tigernuts opinion'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not spending 10 years arguing about where to put the fusion test lab would have been a good start, for instance'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's pointless zade, because wind power needs to be 100% backed up by reliable source'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the most cloth eared of environmental scientist will have been able to tell you that'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'one of the contributors on that weblink was my tutor at uni, heh'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'A) thats actually not true, and B) even if it were it would still reduce emissions whenever the reliable resource (natural gas) did not have to be burned'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'look at what MISO is doing with DIRs'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'peaceful "fusion" energy-production is currently a science-fiction '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'B suggests A isn't actually true, but even given either of those, there are reliable green energies being overlooked'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Wind is the corporate welfare vehicle of choice'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yeah even though wind gets less subsidies per kilowatthour of generation than coal, natural gas, oil, or nuclear'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps Windfarms produce subliminal noises that cause voters to vote erratically'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not here they don't'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not even considering the lack of proper liability for emissions and other waste'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'german solar panels'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but then, our genius government just signed us into a contract with China to build a nuke plant providing power at a guaranteed $150 per MWh whereas the same reactors in France are generating at $45/MWh'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't have UK numbers handy, but I would be surprised if wind got more per kwh than fossil fuels did there.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'the alternative fuels today will NEVER be the full answer, i think evcp ch'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we have estuaries and rivers that could provide 20% of the coutnry's power'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'lol mega fail sorry'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the best plan would have always been to gradually remove any existing subsidies from fossil fuel plants while increasing the cleanliness requirements on new plants being built'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not endtime? really if we didn't care about the local ecological damage and farming impacts we could probably generate all we need from conventional hydro alone'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and eventually one way or another renewables will be cheaper than non-renewables'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'won't be unless any capacity is built'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course it may be too late for a cool planet by then'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i'd welcome a warmer planet'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'i was gonna say unless there are some breakthrough innovations in alternatives it won't be up to the task of fully replacing anything. we would need not even next generation solar, but maybe next next next generation solar. we would need the ability to store energy produced in alternative farms to distribute during peak hours. this is still just a dream. but you can't just refuse to begin making the change until everything is perfectly ready made to order'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however it does appear that the only real difference in our opinions appears to be how to achieve the target of coming off fossil fuels'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not capable for what reason endtime?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its all about economics'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you prefer the stick - punishing the poor and impoverishing the west with carbon taxes, i'd prefer to do it through empowerment and encouragement (carrot)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and where do you get the funding for the carrot tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'through income taxes which distort labor markets?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'general taxation, nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'through sales taxes which are hideously regressive and distort buying decisions?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'well i have heard statistics suggesting we would have to do things like build a wind turbine every 10 minutes for the next 20 years, build a new nuclear plant every 3 months for a decade, things of this magnitude. it's just unreasonable and impossible to suggest this is going to happen. BUT, if more efficient methods were developed those numbers could come back to the realm of reality'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's no silver bullet, but income tax is the fairest method we have'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'especially if it's a flat rate tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'HAHAHAHA'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'HAHAHAHAAAHAHA'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'flat tax == regressive tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"the filthy rich want more carrots, lots of carrots! -- and beggar you middle-class peasants!"  <-- (Tigernuts policies looseley paraphrased)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dashiell: 'I don't think government has any business regulating or running anything. They can't be bothered to do a decent job, so they do a crappy job and blame everyone else.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'income taxes by their nature distort labor markets, diminising the GDP'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of all the taxes on the UK books, income tax is the fairest, even if you use your slightly fucked up communist idea of fair, then it's still "the least regressive"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'hardly'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'a carbon tax would actually be less regressive than a flat income tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'would not'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and certainly less regressive than the income tax that we have in the US which proports to be progressive but ends up with the middle class paying a higher percentage of their income than the ultra rich'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the ultra rich pay less tax because they write the tax laws and are able to take advantage of globalisation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's an entirely different issue altogether'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Dashiell is apparently supporting more deregulation - (but look 2008 financial meltdown to see where deregulations went)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Dashiell raises an eyebrow at Zade's weird actions.
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dashiell: 'that wasn't deregulation, that was legalized theft'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dashiell: 'and I never said there shouldn't be regulation, I said government is clueless and doesn't know how to do it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"legalized theft" permitted by "deregulation"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dashiell: 'nop'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dashiell: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'regulation is a third best solution, a second best solution is a tax that approximates the externalities, a first beset solution would be a costless and perfect liability system'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course the first best solution is a myth'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your second solution immediately pushes all of the cost onto the consumer, hitting the poorest most'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hence i'd argue the third solution is the best'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think it does tigernuts, given that energy usage is fairly linerally correlated with wealth'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course as long as (as Zade points out) the ultra rich get to write the laws, the implementation of a carbon tax would likely favor the ultra rich and enough of the poor to get the popular support, leaving the bill with the middle class like always'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"a tax that approximates the externalities" <-- a near iucomprehensible gooblededook by Emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what is so hard to understand about it zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'made sense to me.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'presume for the sake of argument that we knew that the expected value of the next ton of carbon emission was $25'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the cost to remove it was $50'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the cost to not emit it in the first place was $30'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps Sir Humphrey from "Yes Minister" may explain'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Zade, it's a "let's make up a fee to fit the agenda" guesswork'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's like valuing loss of earnings in court cases'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'valuing losses of earnings is done all the time in the real world tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, and it's entirely non-scientific, too'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the special doctrine we attach to it in court cases is a bunch of junk'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a bit like valuing tech companies'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but accounting firms have been doing it successfully (with some notable but rare collossal failures) for centuries.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you mistake complex for incomprehensible'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the fundamental point is, you're talking about applying costs to externalities, i was talking about subsidising your target science. Both achieve the same thing, both fall on the tax payer. The only difference is if you frontload the cost by subsidising, you get to choose who the bill falls on, backloading it by charging carbon tax, the cost falls on the consumer'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'except your way is the government picking the winners and paying for them on the backs of the taxpayer'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you do that either way'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no you don't'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'look at what british columbia has done with its carbon tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it hasn't killed the natural gas boom there'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sure you do, by deciding what the carbon price is, then relying on the corporate cartels to come up with an alternative scam'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well i can tell you that in the UK, and in Australia, it has NOT had the intended impact and has cost the public dearly'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'Tigernuts, what happens when some of the alternative firms the government chooses to subsidize fail? (as surely most technology startups will) Think the politicians have enough guts to tell the constituents this is the reality of venture capitalism?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you need to get a proven technology before you set up 'a firm', but this has already happened - USA Soylendra wasn't it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'they don't even have the guts to tell them Increased Spending all the time and Lowered Taxes all the time is an irrational demand to place upon government'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because turkeys vote for xmas, endtime'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'exactly, Soylendra was a massive embarassment. No one had the guts to just say you have to break some eggs to make an omelette, if you will'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again this is why it would be better to just price carbon appropriately and let the market sort it out'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'interesting almost all the major oil companies have recently started using an explict carbon price in thier development models'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because there isn't a free market'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they have essentially said they are ready for a carbon tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'one of the few things that Zade has right is that there are no free markets, Capitalism is dead - we have corporatism. You wondered why electric cars got shelved in the 50s? Same reason hydrogen cars got shelved in the 90s. Cartels'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'buy up competing technologies and kill them'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that is why i argue for direct development from the government'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the beauty of a carbon tax is that you actually don't even need to set it as high as the actual cost of carbon, depending on how you use the revenues from it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'because governments are soo good at developing technology cheaply and efficiently'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'I just can't see that working TNuts. Would love to be proven wrong in the long run, but i just can't see it happening. I can already see the exposes "500 million wasted!!!!!" '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Obama already wasted far more than that'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'look at private space launch development versus government space launch development'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'put it this way, UK guvmint is "investing" $70bn in a stretch of highspeed railway so the rich twats in the city can get home half an hour early. It would cost $25 to build the Severn tidal barrage that would generate 5% of the UK's energy needs'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '$25bn'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(not $25, clearly)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'when governments (and the military and the covert agencies) fully fund Universities that may be the case that "governments are soo good at developing technology cheaply and efficiently"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'generally they're terrible, Zade, but no worse than industry'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'rich twats write big checks'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, they don't, else they'd pay their taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'why pay taxes when campaign contributions are cheaper? anyway, been a fun conversation, gotta get ready for work now. bye guys'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but when the filthy rich fund the Academic heads of universities to sing their tune -- disaster as scientific research becomes biased and corrupted'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so TN, do you deny that when an actiivty damages a third party that the participants of the activity should have to bear the cost of that damage?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am just trying to figure out where have the problem with externalities based economics'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'depends if this is real damage or conflated hand wavey damage'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'also depends if that damage is due to an accident or due to an ongoing process'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'lets assume for the sake of argument that there is real damage'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it's due to an ongoing process then they should not have been able to take part in the activity in the first place'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it's due to an accident, then yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so if I can engage in mining activity that generates a billion dollars in profits, but causes $100 in damages to a nearby farmer I should not be allowed to do it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'even if I can compensate him for his damages?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'depends on him, doesn't it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'large salaries, huge prior bonuses, golden parachutes, and chapter 11 -- pay alleged damages with what - ha!  (the culprits are long gone and laughing at the bank) (unless bailed out by the government, when more bonuses!)y'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so by your system tigernuts absolutely noone shouldl be allowed to burn fossil fuels ever'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but generally, provided a fair and equitable agreement was had beforehand, that would be fine'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since they cause damages to property owners who do not agree to them'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nonsense Emm, because I saw ahead of time that you were going to equate burning fossil fuels with damage to other people'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'oh we can show that easily'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'farmers in the USA are spewing out pesticides etecetera, and causing damage to the 4 billion dollar bee industry -- (4 billion dollars is not a flippant $100, Emm)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ozone and acid rain, even if we ignore climate change'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'exactly so no more phosphate/nitrate fertalizers and pesticides'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so now we have not nearly enough power and not nearly food'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'whats next?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the hundreds of new pesticides are killing the bees'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree with zade, corporatism at work again'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'don't obfuscate with phosphate nitrate fertilisers'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people turning a blind eye to monopoly and sharp practices by Montsanto and the other poisoners'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'government complicit'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'phosphate nitrate fertilisers do not kill bees'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not offuscation the fishing industry in the gulf has been destroyed by nitrification of the effluent of the mississippi river'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'obfuscation?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'however you spell it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'thanks obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the farmers are wasting the nitrates'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'Monsanto overcharges for their Glyphosate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps if they used nitrates that stayed in the soil instead of being washed out to the river'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'you can get the same stuff for like less than half the price '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'on the same shelf in dome depot'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'world would need less fertiliser AND energy if there were fewer people, so why are we still paying people to breed?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'been able to get it since 2000'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so your solution is to kill off 90% of the population of the planet so we can support ourselves with "sustainable" (read stone age) techniques.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but i would use that big media whitewash brush to make having more than 2 kids unsociable, instead pushing fostering/adoption as an alternative. Benefits should be cut off after 2 kids'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what benefits?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'welfare payments'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"welfare mothers"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I would think you wouldn't support any benefits to begin with since that would be the leechers taking from the work creators or whatever nonesense you call it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you think wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'career "welfare mothers"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'we should drug test them rachet hoes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not convinced that such a thing exists outside of some right wing fantasy land zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we should drug test all elected officials  :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no need for that nonsense, just set a date after which new kids won't get any welfare'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'hrm, ostrich syndrome'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'much like the epidemic of voter fraud that has led to all these voter id laws, I am pretty sure this is political fiction.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nah, there's plenty of voter fraud going on'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'hah, voting matters..good one'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'needing a photo id to vote seems quite sensible to me, we've had it here for years'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'someone who owes the city money shouldnt be able to vote for state officals?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes but you have no constitutional protection against poll taxes anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such a thing helps prevent Mr Bush from burning ballot papers and Mr Obama for packing his voter roll with illegal immigrants and dead people'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't see how voter id has anything to do with Florida 2000 since that was about defective machinery and corrupt state officials'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and I have seen no evidence to suggest that Obama did anything of the sort, or needed to in order to win both his elections by large margins.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'obama is bad, just accept it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was local plebs in both cases'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if you could point me to a website that asserts such and does not also assert that he was not a natural born US citizen please do so'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't disagree that Obama is bad, I just don't have any reason or evidence to accuse him of voter fraud'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.cbsnews.com/news/congressmans-son-resigns-after-voter-fraud-video/'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'well he is kenyen for one'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'his mother was an american citizen yes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or is this now contested also?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'because my understanding is that if your mother is a US citizen you are one too regardless of where you are born.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'interesting how we went from very real localised voter fraud to obama is kenyan'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'hint. none of it matters'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'you cant control it, you cant stop it.. just let it happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yep, gruagach, and you're screwed by the system whomever gets in'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i just thank god that i was born in the greatest country in the world'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what, Chile?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'new zealand?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Russia?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'China?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'lets see'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'Japan (before Fukushima)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'hint: you're a video game on the internet'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'internet created by..'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'cy@'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'British'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'swedish'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wait wasn't the internet created by al gore?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm  :)
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well its been fun'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I have exams to study or'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'stupid f key'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'good luck passing your american exams'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'sometimes I wish I was a student again'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'you can study me baby'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I do already'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'life is a school where we study ourselves, our friends and our enemies. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish who is who though.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'since most of us are full of preconceived ideas about ourselves it makes that subject the hardest to study and understand.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'ElFeneri. you were gyped when you purchased that defective "philosophical sayings" booklet'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'as a student you often was certain about the answer to the problem at the end of the book, or at the end of the lesson. There was a teacher that knew the answer.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'now one fumbles around blindfolded trying to find a solution. Along the way you'll find many truths, question is which truth applies to your problem?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Zade, I don't believe in philosophy to come with any answers. Just more questions.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'in fact that's what studies does. Lets you know how little you actually know about the world.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'philosophy often informs answers'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'socialism, however, does not'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'socialism is for making fatcats rich.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yup'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'socialism is yet another truth without an application'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i understand it more to be a lie'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'depends on your perspective'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, not really'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'the general public gets really, really poor in a socialist environment.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't i know it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'if you look for an ideal world without human elements, where everyone acts like a robot and obeys the rules, then socialism might be your answer.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given how our governments treat their people, i'd say that's a hope too far'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'i hate the government. it makes me work for money'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'decent grammatical english, please:  "As a student, you often *were* certain about the answer to the exercise." (but that unfounded conjectured assertion does not go anywhere.)  (Also the statement that "a teacher knew the (alleged) answer" seems non sequitur or irrelevant (or perhaps an invitation to sensei worship - (disgusting)))'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Zade, perhaps we should debate in a language that is not your native language instead, but mine?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'this looks like good news, though: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'grasshopper Elfeneri, you almost sound oriental'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'ooo u so fun e'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Zade, I promise to let you know when you make a mistake every time I have nothing to add to the discussion'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade appreciates the service.
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pointing out spelling or grammar errors is a sure sign you have nothing to give to an argument'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a bit like bring up Obama's religion or citizenship'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, seems the indication of a "spelling" error caused you to disregard the "meaning" errors'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as long as the meaning is clear, i don't care about spelling or grammar'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Druzil (inadvertently or purposely) used to use grammar errors, spelling errors, and or gross-punctuation errors, to disguise the "meaning" (which may or may not 've been "meaning" errors, since the "grammar" used was partially incomprehensible)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(Druzil did keep the debate channel busy)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'lovely, now what do you want to bring up?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'after a spliff and a long discussion it was decided the most likely thing to happen next in asia would be for China to invade North Korea'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Druzil (though seemingly grammatically-challenged) did not intentionally seek to deceive'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(unlike some of the current debate participants)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you would point the finger at yourself?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's harsh, man'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'when somebody is honest inside, they are perhaps worth repairing'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(when somebody is dishonest inside, they are not worth repairing)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'if I tell you I'm dishonest, does that make me worthy in your eyes? If I'd be honest about it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can't win at that point, ElF'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I rarely look at debates in terms of winning or losing.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if people believe me dishonest, it's probably that i haven't explained something well enough to put across my opinion'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(unless there is a repair to convert the inside-dishonesty to inside-honesty)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(a double sided coin, with each side stating "the other side is false" is yet a "false" coin)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I'm not trying to force my opinions on any of you, nor make you see that what I think is right. Debate for me is a way of sensing what people around me think. Or I would have been a politician.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'sometimes it's just fun to discuss.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's usually far less difference in people's opinions that meets the eye'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'opinion forcing is for imm channel'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most of the time it comes down to core ideology, and that's not something you can really be wrong or right about with'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'think of it like this:  if you had to design the world BEFORE YOU KNEW WHAT BABY YOU WOULD BE, what would it look like?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such as the meaning of "fair" when applied to tax, that's down to ideology'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'even a fair tax system is bad if it funds inefficient and bad government spending'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course, there's always that side of the coin'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'my taxes are unfair no matter how long if a lot goes to pay people to paint the president's portrait everyday'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'low**'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'debating "fair tax system" is moot unless everyone believe taxes are fair to begin with.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could have an extremely "progressive" and heavy tax, but if it's all spent on programs benefitting the rich, what use was it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'that too'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't think anyone would describe taxes as fair'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'taxes are fair, anarchists aren't invited to a discussion'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'except perhaps if you're a net recipient'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'somebody has to pay for courts, radio, parks, military, etc.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'any anarchists in?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'mathematical taxes can be quite fair. but people don't believe in maths anymore.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'if taxes are fair, then perhaps the term "fair" needs to be defined so that everyone can agree on the meaning of that word.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'fair means good for me and fuck you'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I buy that explanation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'that would make sense to most discussions where the word fair is thrown about.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're right in that 'fair' is where the issue is. It's meaning depends on what you believe the purpose of taxation is'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'we need new kinds of numbers. lets call them "emotional numbers". then we can have a solid base to make them taxes fair(er)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Kojiro, you likely require to pay the fees up-front for that feasibility nonsense study -- perhaps speak to a demon with a nasty pitchfork as to where to go to discuss the payment options - meanwhile there's coal to shovel so the fires of hell are hot(ter) -- chorus: "You load sixteen tons of number nine coal,"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if like me you believe taxation is a means for paying for the services that are provided by government because they benefit and were requested the vast majority of society'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or if you're like Emm and believe taxation is a means of redistributing wealth from the rich to give to the poor (which is the opposite of really what happens in a socialist society, it goes from the poor and middle classes to the ultra rich ruling group)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'btw. we need "emotional logic" too.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so for me, fair would mean everyone paying the same percentage'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for Emm it means the rich paying disproportionately more'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'this is also the school that Zade subscribes to'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'my iq is 68, i deserve more money!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'zade, are you insane?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'because i have to work harder!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Kojiro, he's playing a text based game. What do you think?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'i buy into the idea that the rich should pay 'more' through higher marginal rates.  i saw this as a rich person at the top rate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'say***'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'I'm only rich because a capitalist system happens to reward some talents WAY more than others.  Like by multitudes of 1000x+.  That's just luck, I don't deserve it.  I have worked way less hard (though to be fair it's more like play) than most people in this country for a fortune that lets me retire at 30.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'so I  believe that those who disproprtionately benefit from a capitalist market system also disproprtionately support it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'does the fact that you made your money make you more prone to acts of philanphropy, kojiro?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'for sure'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'but I won't give away material amounts of money until I have enough to solve the problems I want to solve (require 9 figures), or until I die'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'some say work smarter, not harder. Given a set or rules, and you play by them and profit, how are you not worthy of what ever profit comes your way?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'elf - I earned the money, I don't mean deserve in that sense.  But if you were to quantify the work and toil and hardship involved, it's really by luck that I grew up in a capitalist market-driven society where my skills happen to be rewarded very richly.  If I was born in paraguay I'd be lugging pummelos around or worse.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, it's that set of rules, Elf'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'corporate banking, for example, within the rule of the law, well outside the spirit of the law and all contemporary moral bounds'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but other than that, if you had a business, unlike Obama, you DID build that (unless you bought it)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Yes Tiger, the rules are probably not perfect and they probably never will be. Perfect in the sense that everyone will benefit and none will perish.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Kojiro, circumstances and your decisions made you rich. Tough luck.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'so, if you were designing a system to be born into, before knowing which baby you would be and which fortune you would(n't) have, would you want a government supported by everyone equally or more by those that benefit the most and less by those who beenfit hte least?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'being rich is usually the result of graft, talent, and opportunity'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'being filthy rich is usually the result of luck, and being in the right place at the right time'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'elf - yea absoltely fortune and timing were huge.  Decisions that you look back and would have done differently paid off in very unexpected ways.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'so it was lucky that that 'poor' decisions were made, in retrospect!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Kojiro, serendipity.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'for a long time, I regretted taking a full ride at a state school instead of student loans to an Ivy'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i regret going to university, period'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'that turned out to be a million times beneficial to me, b/c I was repeatedly strucky by lightning (metaphor), but I think it was the wrong decision 9 times out of 10'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'i don't regret going to university. It was a good choice for me.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for most people, going to university is not a good investment'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'on a purely financial pov'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'not "serendipity"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'i disagree w/ that in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'it probably is, but it can be hard to find a proper job in 1st couple of years.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'not only for what I learned there that satisfied my curiosity about what makes this world tick, but also for the opportunities it gave me. '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, well in the UK in the late 90s the then useless Labour government decided that on the grounds of "equality" that all the technical colleges be turned into universities and that 50% of the school leavers should go to university'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'led to totally devalued degrees, higher tuition fees and a jobs market flooded with graduates with second rate qualifications'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and it hasn't recovered'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'I went to primary school in the UK for a while.  hated every bit of it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'my primary school was before they fucked up the school education system with the national curriculum, and it was great back then'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'why did i have to waste my time doing home economics and wood shop?  seriously.  not sure if that was part of a national curriculum or the bizarre private school my parents sent me to.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then they standardised syllabi and teaching methods and all the bright kids were forced to learn at the pace of the slowest'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'private school, wood shop and home ec are optionals'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Tiger, like a tax on genious?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty much, a previous labour government were responsible for banning Grammar Schools which were free schools whose intake was based on ability'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'that is mentally painful, to learn at the same rate as the retarded'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they were the awesome for getting bright kids from poor backgrounds into good jobs/universities, so labour hated them'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Labour party is the UK equivalent of the US Democrats, btw'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'except perh'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'except perhaps today labour is less leftist'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nah, they're just as leftist'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'zade - that's why always send your kid to a big school (or a selective collegiate private school).  even if your kid is below average, they will rise to the challenge (just less than peers)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just not openly so'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tinada gives Tigernuts a nod, saying, "OK".
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'woodshop is useful'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'I went to 8 different schools for US k-12, I've seen it all'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'wood shop is utterly useless'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'depends if you're that way inclined and at what level. At high school level? pointless'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'primary school was when we did it.  6th grade or so'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if i had my time again, i'd have trained as multidisciplinary builder, builder plumber sparky'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'better for everyone to play chess for 40 minutes than fuck around with saws and sandpaper'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't teach mental maths anymore, that's one of the reason kids are so thick these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pre-decimalisation currency was awesome for maths'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'if rich enough to hire a contractor, suppose woodshop may seem a waste (unless the woodshop offered was kiddie toytools workshop, then likely a waste)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: '40 minutes twice a week of a 12 year old's time can make a big impact on their life with an itneresting and thought provoking subject.  Wood shop isn't that.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'thought-provoking ?!? -- you want to train 12 year-olds to be dissenters ?!?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'give kids 5 hours of english/math/language #2 and let them choose the last 15 hours, I'm pretty certain results would be better than today'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'pinball games!!!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'history should be there somewhere. There's alot to learn from it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'meh, history is probably best taught outside of school'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"let them choose the last 15 hours" -- video games!!!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'perhaps Tiger, history shouldn't be taught by a biased teacher.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's the issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'you would restrict the allowed subjects to something the students would learn from, so they'd have to push themselves a bit'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'got to be careful to teach in context and teach critical thinking, same with religion (which is essentially history too)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'it might be hard to argue for video games'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'depends on the type of video game. Most modern games? agered'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I also seriously doubt it should take forever to learn to read, write and do basic arithmetics, I never quite got why that was made into the insanely drawn out process it is'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'except of course if you say that school is intended as a storage place/way to control the masses and such :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a lot of it is down to parents, they used to read to me, make me read, encouraged me to do maths'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as a result i was miles ahead'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'and teachers don't want to/don't have time to/can't give those students something meaningful to do in class.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'have to say, a lot of it down to the lack of a proper family with a working parent and an at-home parent'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'parents these days entirely abdicate responsibility for bringing up their kids to the state'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'parents >> school, certainly'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Tiger, yeps. if the kids fail it's not their fault. Right? It's comfortable to be able to point a finger at someone/something when things don't turn out well.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not a helpful thing to say'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'nope, but that's how many seem to reason nowadays'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's true to some extent'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'most things are not completely true'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'young kids don't really have a concept of what the purpose of learning is'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's part and parcel of what parents are for'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'i know nothing about bitcoin. but here, what if every last one of you could have your own money? how would that work hm..'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'basically. one guy has PeterCoin, the other has JohnCoin. John does some work for Peter and gets some of his coins.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'we could test it here, in the mud. every one has their own coins(that has already been used.. these spellup tokens). 10 of my coins is worth 10k drag xp. If i want to keep the value of my coins high, i better give the drag. hm? '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'wikipedia is cool but it is useless. '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'aarwolf players are untrollable'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bitcoin isn't about whose coin it is'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bitcoin is basically a currency who is independant of nation states or banks'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'mhmh. i know nothing about it, just got a different ide'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'idea*'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the key thing to know about bitcoin is that every transaction is recorded on a distributed transaction log. EVERYONE has a copy of every transaction ever made (despite the owner of the bitcoin being anonymous)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which gives it a certain measure of fraud protection'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so the value of bitcoin may arbitrarily suddenly collapse per the whim of somebody'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'it sounds so crazy. that bitcoin. but interesting as hell'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'possible, less likely the more diverse the owner base'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's certainly true that the value of bitcoin is volatile'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, it must be made clear that the value of bitcoin is not the coins themselves, but the platform'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'seems almost like a derivatives scam'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): .... Hwuaijijal is agreeing with that Zade person again...
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it does, but it's not'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're not repackaging anything with bitcoin'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bitcoins have no intrinsic value and nobody is pretending that they do'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unlike derivative products or fiat money'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bitcoin is repackaging something'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not, there's nothing to repackage'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i get why someone would say that fiat money has no intrinsic value (of course thats not strictly speaking true it's value depends on how much you trust the issuer of the fiat), but why would you say derivative products have no intrinsic value?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'derivative products have intrinsic value, but it is a fraction of what they are sold at'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that seems very likely in most cases'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also if you get really cold you could burn either of them (the paper money or the derivitive contracts) and that would be some intrinsic value'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not a very helpful or sensible way of looking at it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I mean there is some serious debate about how much intrinsic value we want our money to have'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it can be a real problem when the intrinsic value exceeds the face value (as it does with silver coins and even copper coins).'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's a nonsense statement because it's circular logic'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bitcoin is offered by the platform to marks that supply (say) hard computing labor -- the marks upon "earning" this bitcoin then look at the shiny virtual baubles and say "is this enough to buy back Manhattan"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'when the value of a coin, as a coin, is less than the value of the copper in the coin, people melt it down.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'this happened ALOT with Mexican money a few decades ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'correct, but the value of that copper is based on it's trade value'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'currency is a common means of barter'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'governments print money, causing the value of money to deflate while causing inflation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because of the break between currency and underlying valuable commodities, you will likely never have coins being worth more than their face value in circulation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bitcoin does not even require a printing press'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate wrong tigernuts, because of that break it becomes increasingly likely to have such'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they will change the currency in circulation well ahead of any change in value'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in fact we are almost to the point that we are going to have to start making pennies out of something other than zinc because even that much zinc is worth more than 1 cent'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they will just stop circulating 1 cent coins'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that historically has not happened very well'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they've already reduced the size of british coinage AND changed to a cheap metal in my lifetime'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'aluminium coins'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they continued to make silver coins well into the 60s even though they were worth more as silver starting around the end of ww2'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they continued to make pennies out of copper until 1984 even though it was worth more as copper from about 1976 on.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the US is better about the changeover than some other countries have been'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'especially countries that end up with hyper inflation.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'silver went to 50% silver 50% nickel here in 1900s, and 25% silver 75% nickel in 1925, and mostly nickel in 1949'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '1p and 2p coins were mostly copper until 1992. At one point last year they almost became on parity with value, but have since dropped back agani'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'none of the UK currency now has a metal value past about 1/100th the face value'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the defect with aluminium coins is the counterfeiting possibilities, unless perhaps a microchip is installed'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'aluminium is far to valuable to make coins from'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they'll use steel'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'like the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'according to the internet from 1932 to 1964 the silver quarters in the US were 10% copper 90% silver'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'rusty coins'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which gives those coins a current melt value of about $3.50'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in todays money, what about in 1964 money?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well i'm glad you support the concept of sound money at some point'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'about 35 cents give or take'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well in that case, the person in your mint at the time was probably a bit of an idiot'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it takes a little bit of time to change the currency'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you know since it requires an act of congress'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wel actualy it doesn't anymore, but it did then'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well what doesn't require an act of congress is to stop producing the coins that are costing more than face vbaalue'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'oh we still do THAT'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the numismatic coin-collector value of mint old silver coins is likely far more than the metal-value'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'minting pennies costs roughly 1.6 cents each'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and their melt value is approaching 1 cent now'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yet we mint debate oh sorry i had old data, its actually about 2.41 cents per penny to mint nowdays'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and we still mint them by the truckload'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your 1c coins are mostly zinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just scrap em and make your 5, and 10c coins copper plated steel like here'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'cupronickel for the 25c  50c and $1'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'im all for getting rid of pennies'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we are litterally smelting away billions of dolars a year on pennies'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'they said how much we spend every year on coins and how much money we are losing, but when you divide it out per person its like 13 cents per person to continue to have pennies, and 50 cents per person to keep using dollar bills instead of dollar coins.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if we go by buying power there really is no reasonable justification for having pennies anymore, or even nickles really'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'dollar bills cost less than $1 to print, malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we eliminated te half penny when it was worth more than 10 times what a penny is worth today'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'but switching to dollar coins would be cheaper (they last longer)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not what the problem is, malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'the canadians I have talked to have been happy about getting rid of pennies.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it costs more to make a quarter than a dollar'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'It is still considered a problem to not do things the cheapest way.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it'll be a while before they ditch coppers here, but it will happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it almost costs more to make a penny than it does to make a dollar'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'but the penny lasts longer.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'those that don't get immidiately pulled back out of circulation and melted down i guess'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes we really are that stupid, we mint pennies, ship them to banks that don't use them, and send them back to be destroyed, all in the same year'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps the value of currency needs reinflating, then you won't be making a loss on it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i think that means you want deflation, which I am strongly against at the present moment'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, why are you against deflation?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'mainly because I owe almost 200 grand in student debt'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'overstretched, have we?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I would love for 100% inflation for a couple years :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'especially if it could happen right before I get a job'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'inflation is what causes people to remain poor'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in an ideal world there would be no inflation or deflation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I wouldn't want to live in that world'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I prefer a world where there are reasonable fluctuations'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as it is, we're inflating at around 7.5% which would help you if it weren't for the fact that wages are only going up 1%'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'keep everyone honest'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ours isn't quite that high even using the "real" numbers that include more reasonable baskets'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's 5-10% in most of the western world using original measures'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'apparently slightly lower than a year or two ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Deflation is bad for one reason. People do not invest now which would be damaging to the economy. They push investment into the future when their purchase will be cheaper.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i am pretty sure its below 5% in the US at present even using the gold standard people's numbers'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'expected deflation is bad for that reason elfeneri'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'unexpected deflation (as long as it is moderate) isn't really a good thing or a bad thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'guvmint fiddled figures is 1%, by 1990s based cpi is 4.5%, by 1980s original cpi, 8%'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK's is a bit higher by about 1.5%'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the value of a dollar 10 years from now could be reasonably expected to be +-10% of what it is now or anywhere in between with standard deviations around 1.54% people would happily invest even knowing there could be some deflation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'the swedish central bank has a target inflation of around 3%. They consider inflation below that figure to be deflation even though it's a positive number. It's a common strategy to aim for a moderate inflation.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'many central banks reason in a similar way'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and that's a fraudulent position to hold, ElF'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the cpi isn't the best measure of inflation, and old cpi's can be deceptively bad'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if inflation is 3% by the rigged CPi calculation, then real terms inflation is 7-10%'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i don't think there is as strong of a correlation between the two as you expect tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it could be twice that or half that'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm looking at the graphs now, there's a direct correlation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it could even be below the cpi number (which actually happened a couple of times in the last 50 years'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it depends on what you mean by "real inflation"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'year-to-year percent change in the price index, as cpi is'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what basket of goods though?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'a basket that needs to be revised every now and then'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats where all the rigging (for either side) comes in'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, but not in the way they revised it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they came up with this substitution idea whereby if there was a cheaper equivalent product, they'd substitute, but this led to quality change, even size/capacity change'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most notably here with food and accommodation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '40 years ago an average house would have been a 3 bed duplex with a garden, now it's a 2 bedroom flat'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'substitude a 1lb bar of cadburies chocolate for a 400g own-brand budget label'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's the sort of shenanigans they used in the post 1990 cpi'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'using costs for properies in the inflation model is normally a bad idea since they don't follow the price development as regular goods does.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the whole point of CPI was to measure cost of maintaining a constant standard of living. This is no longer the case'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-438-public-comment-on-inflation-measurement'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'if demand regulates the price of an item it shouldn't be measured in cpi.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so it should be based on actual expenditures of teh median household?.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can go read the explanation as well as i can'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'im confused by that statement elfen'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'when does demand not regulate the price of an item?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when the price is regulated by external forces'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so the only thing that should be in the cpi are things that are set by fiat?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats a recipe for disaster'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'if there is a high demand for TVs then more TVs are produced. If there's a high demand for estates by the sea then the coastal line isn't expanded to provide the buyers with houses.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and which of those do you suggest are or are not regulated by deman?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that doesn't sound right, Emm, how about going back to how it used to be measured?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'but if you rent goes up, the Cost of Living goes up.  Certain luxury goods shouldn't be put in.  The price of a Picasso should be excluded.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'the goods that are used to calculate inflation. Real estates are not in there, or shouldn't be in there. TVs could be though.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'aso i tae issue with the second claim there elf, in fact coastlines are often expanded due to increases in demand'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'with mass-produced TVs and computers, the price is likely to go down and the quality is likely to increase.  coastal properties are likely to increase with demand'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I mean aside from the dutch who are actually building new coastlines there are also various reclamation projects, as well as different types of coastlines that become profitable to manipulate into estate worthy format'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i can tell you now the quality of computers does not go up with decreased price'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think he means from generation to generation'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the cost of a decent computer'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the cost of a decent computer has remained roughly static'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'over what timeframe?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'my lifetime'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'when I was a kid a decent computer cost either 99 bucks (for a commadore) or several hundred thousand dollars (for a good mainframe or supercomputer)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when i was growing up, it would have been about $500 (early 80s) by 1995 when i bought my first pc it was $1500, now you're looking at $3000'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'when I was a teenager a decent pc cost 2-3 grand'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'today I can buy a decent computer or about 600 bucs'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, you can't'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '1300 for a decent laptop'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can buy a shit computer for 600 bucks'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can buy an 'ok' laptop for 1300 bucks'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'It seems I have to be more precise since you miss my point. Products in that basket we talked about should be of a kind that there is always enough of them not to drive the prices up. People do not stand in line waiting for TVs to be produced to get one.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am using a constant of (can play most of the current generation of games) as "decent"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there is an issue with technology, elF, that's why it's best to stick to the basics, food, energy'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and i hold that constant throughout'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then you definitely can't get a decent pc for 600 bucks'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'two things that they don't measure because they fluctuate soo much'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'an ibm 8088 in 1983 was $2600 - a 320 floppydrive was at least $500 - 5.25" floppies were at least $5 each  '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'ok, food then. If the shelves in the food shop are empty then price of food will increase more than if there is good supply of it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you do realize that by that measure we had massive deflation in 2008 right?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'followed by massive inflation in 2009-2011'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'according to official statistics, you did have deflation in 2008'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well technically 2009 i guess'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Emm, there are many articles in that basket. Ranging from food to TVs, to toilet paper and electricity. One, or even a few of the products can increase/decrease in cost without giving a huge impact on the inflation.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'prices are often regulated by what the public is willing to pay amidst alternatives'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and that was the point of it, ElF'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it worked fine until they started substituting things for clearly lower quality/inferior things'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'the point I, sloppily it seems, have been trying to make with a few short sentences.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'tech goods are a bad thing to include, really, since they're volatile and not really part of living costs'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'when supermarkets want to increase the prices on some products, the public swiches to alternatives'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'well, substituting the goods to something that people don't buy isn't a good idea.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'just as bad as going to a football game and ask how many in the audience like going to football and use that as a reference to how popular the sport is in a country.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think we can all agree that governments manipulate financial figures to put thmeslves in the best light'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but food and energy are both very volatile, and energy is probably the most volatile of all goods a normal person buys regularly'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'eh? energy isn't volatile'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'are you kidding me?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'what is not volatile then? There's a reason why tehre are many things in that basket.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the price of raw vegetables is interesting - harder to inflate when the consumer dislikes (costly) vegetables'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all the taxes on energy here and the way it's bought contractually year ahead means it's not volatile'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'energy is highly volatile. At least in Sweden. There's a steady increase in cost but huge fluctuations along the way. Varies with climate and seasons, with uptime of power plants and local politics.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not the case here, ElF'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'alright, congratulations'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'look at gasoline prices'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'energy is f'kin expensive and always going up'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is a form of energy'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'look at coal prices'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'petrol prices here been pretty constant this year'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not here'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'also dangerous to inflate the price of vegetables, since if the consumers health declines, the productivity of the workforce declines and medical costs increase (in socialist universal-medicare Canada)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they are never stable here'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because it is taxed considerably less there'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'true'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'a nice $20-$30 a ton carbon tax would help, (would work out to about 20 to 30 cents per gallon for gas'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.petrolprices.com/the-price-of-fuel.html#j-1-2'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm )
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'It is not easy to find a perfect measure of inflation.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'but it must be measured and handled. If we have a bad model it's better than no model.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in the US in 2011 alone there were price per kilowatthour between 5 cents and 70 cents'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that seems pretty volitile'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'both seasonally and regionaly'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have a simple solution, we tax things we don't like and stop taxing things we actually do like'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's a shit solution'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so no taxes on labour, yes taxes on carbon'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'who are we Emm?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'anyone who cares really, but the US specifically'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a shit solution because people like/don't like different things'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and it's not your right to dictate what other people should like'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ahh well very few people like tropospheric ozone right?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or acid rain?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sw'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or fungal death blooms?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you have no ability to tax acid rain'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sure I do'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since we now exactly what causes it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you cannot tax China'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or India'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'acid rain is a regional issue not a global issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I mean unless you mean via carbon dioxide, btu that is a rather small effect compared to sulfur'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'peerhaps Emm meant: "tax the causes of bad things"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and I have a feeling china is going to start taxing emissions before the US will'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how about you just tax income and sales'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but those are both things we want more of not less of'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then you won't get sufficient revenue'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and since taxes naturally push demand left (inward).'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'prehaps, but then again if we were solving more problems by taxing rather than regulating we would need less regulatory overhead'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and so budgets could decrease somewhat'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we should also find a way to tax foreign wars, but I don't know how to accomplish that'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could just stop starting them'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that woudl be awesome'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'could you tell me how to do that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'vote your two parties out and vote Rand Paul in'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I mean how to establish a policy that the next congress or administration wouldn't just ignore'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'not obscure enough Emm: (instead say) "taxes push demand starboard"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you need people voted in who don't want war,'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I actually don't think that is possible, even if every single citizen in the US voted for him'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'besides there are too many entrenched interests'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'one of my ultra conservative facebook acquaintences suggested that noone be allowed to vote unless they were a net taxpayer'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i know why they would think that, though i can't say i agree'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, so no really-poor voters'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's because of what UK has suffered and what the USA are suffering: Turkeys not voting for xmas'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I responded with, sure as long as we define net tax payer as someone whose actual taxes paid is greater than the sum of all benefits they receive from interacting with the government, so no employees of the government could vote, nor could any major shareholder of any government contractor (or their employees).'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'someone mentioned it earlier, parties that want lower taxes AND higher spending'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'see I want the opposite, I want higher taxes and lower spending'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not an easy problem to solve, possibly best solved by ensuring your democracy is as local as possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I just want to shift as much of the taxes as I can to things that I don't like.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'actually energy taxes in general seem like the would be a good thing in the long run'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whereas i want to shift the taxes so that they are as simple, as unabusable, and as fair as possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's ok, i intend becoming electric/heating self-sufficient, so tax away'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does "fair" mean in this context?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'should those who benefit most from the society pay the most to keep that society functioning?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'fair means everyone paying according to their income or consumption'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not a wealth tax rather than an income tax?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because wealth taxes aren't fair'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because it's arbitrary confiscation of your property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'all taxes are'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'be more specific'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'and wealth can be moved and kept hidden. US wouldn't benefit from alot of capital being moved out of the country.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yep, but at least income taxes are a known proportion of new wealth coming into your posession'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wealth taxes are just hoovering up something you've already earnt, and probably already paid tax on'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'income can be manipulated just as easy as wealth can be'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't disagree with that, still doesn't make it right. I disagree with property taxes for the same reason'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and capital gains tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and moving wealth overseas doesn't help if it is still trackable'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'real estate is prehaps the fairest thing to tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since it is very difficult to manipulate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, it ain't'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because it has no link to either your income or your consumption'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so how is it fair?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you might as well tax people on the length of their hair'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or how tall they are'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does tieing tax to income or consumption make it fair?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the main thing that you are paying for is military defense then taxing the land that is being defended seems entirely fair'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because if it's tied to income then those with higher incomes will pay more, people with lower incomes pay less. If it's tied to consumption you can actively choose buy less or barter'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'barter transactions should all be taxed under current law'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'property taxes are like wealth taxes, you're being taxed on something you've already been taxed on'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'at least in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'property taxes are essentially rent'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you pay rent then you don't own the property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but of course you don't'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'therefore property taxes are essentially an erosion of the concept of private property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the sovreign does'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats always been true'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not what the constitution says'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but as I said if what you are paying for is military protection why shouldn't this be tied to what is being protected?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ditto police protection'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it seems to me that wealth taxes are more fair than income taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those things protect the people, not the property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'whereas income tax hurts the people who are trying to better themselves'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and police don't protect anything except the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'what do you think taxes should be based on Tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or at least, that was the aim'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'clearly not the case now'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why do people tolerate police existing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'income and consumption, malkar, because you can't have one without the other'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'because they want to be secure in thier persons and property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'police were supposed to be arbiters'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no thats the courts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'police are there to enforce order'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'police originally were there to bring people to court'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was never police's job to enforce order'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nor is it their job to enforce the law'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'except the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are insane tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the police have never been about enforcing the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ever'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'except they swear an oath to it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they swear an oath to uphold the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they even did that in the UK until the 1980s'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'does the UK have a constitution?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it did, of sorts'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'now largely superceded by admiralty law'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the ultimate solution is taxation at the lowest pragmatic level, i.e local or state level. That way your taxation can reflect the people living under it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'small democracies work best. It's why scandinavian socialism works and western socialism doesn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's why USA is so polarised'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and it's why UK is so unequal, geographically'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'local states and municipalities are unable to afford the military that 50 states are able to afford'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts forces a gag into Zade's mouth.  Ahhh, blessed quiet.
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'military is one of the few things that the federal government was supposed to provide'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I, ... of ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'says PC plod shortly before arresting a guy for being black without due care and attention'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats the UK one TN'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the US doesn't have one since police are creature of the state'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm orf, have fun with your authoritarian state ambitions!'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'FBI ?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'although federal officers take oaths to support the constitution (like dea, batf, fbi etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'technically none of these are "police"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the only federal peace officers I am aware of are US marshalls'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'unless you count DC cops'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'many states have oaths for police officers that involve supporting the constitution of the US and the laws and constitution of their state'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but mostly its about protect & serve'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which is all about maintaining Order'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which is the role of police traditionally throughout history'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'hence the term Law and Order'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but returning to my original point, the reason people tolerate the existence of the police has to be tied to the desire to be secure in their persons and property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so why not have the tax that pays for police be tied to property values.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'perhaps a head tax as well, but really just having it tied to real property catches everyone but homeless people, and how much protection do they really get from the police?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm, what are you studying at college'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'currently Law and Environmental science'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'what type of "Law"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'law is a general degree in the US zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'though mostly I have been focused on tax and corporate law with a smattering of environmental law type classes as well'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'is that sufficient to become a lawyer'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but we all get the core curriculum'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it will be if I pass my classes in the spring and the bar in july'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'assuming the bar examiner doesn't read my comments on here and decide that I don't have the moral character to sit for the bar :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but yes I am expecting my JD in may if thats what you are asking.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'quote: "perhaps a head tax as well, but really just having it tied to real property catches everyone but homeless people, and how much protection do they really get from the police?'" - Emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the only type of law I wouldn't be licsensed to practice if I pass my bar is patent law which requires its own bar and requires an undergraduate degree in science or engineering to sit for.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(the deep implications are disturbing)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'did you see the first half of the quote?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the idea is that if the main purpose of paying for police is to protect our property (and persons) why shouldn't those revenues come from taxes on said property.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and since everyone who isn't homeless either would pay property tax directly on homes they owned, or indirectly in the form of rent to landlords who themselves pay taxes on that property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(also disturbing) (due to the gaping holes)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what holes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the police do a lot lot more than merely "protect property"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that we want them to do?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what besides protecting property and persons from crimes do we actually want the police to do?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Harperon: 'protecting dogs from crimes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'dogs are property'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that people can commit crimes against thier own property is a subject for another debate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in some jurisidictions police serve civil notices, but generally there is a fee attached to this service that is supposed to pay for the exepense including the officers salary for the time invested.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"an ultra conservative facebook acquaintence suggested that noone be allowed to vote unless they were a net taxpayer" <-- political suicide, (and various lynchmobs and irate citizens may also be seeking that expletive)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'did you see what I said my response was zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or are you just pulling quotes out of context to try to find something wrong with them?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course we would need a constitutional amendment to change who can vote in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm, your rebuttal to that ultra-conservative-defective was okay'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'other than it also being politically infeasible it could actually solve alot of our overovernance problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'people would be a lot less likely to want to be net government benefit receivers if being one removed their voting privleges'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but as I pointed out to my "friend" what it means to be a net benefitor or net payer for government means something entirely diferent than a number on a 1040 form'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I ask again zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what do the police do, that we actually want them to do, besides protect people and their property from criminal activity?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but then some of your suggested remedies to the "tax" dilemmas are "suspect", especially in view of the fact you are studying "Law" - something seems missing'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if you accept that this is the role of the police then why shouldn't the revenue to pay for such services be based on the value of the things protected'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I would point out that most city police are paid for in this fashion (and through ticket revenue but that I think creates the entirely wrong sorts of incentives for the police)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'counter-sidebar: Education: Children benefit - force them to pay y/n?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that isn't police'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'generally education is funded through real estate taxes also, I am not sure if I agree with this, but I am not sure i agree with public school in general so meh.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Police investigate homicides: force the murdered victims to pay more y/n?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the one good thing about taxes is that they allow us to pool risk'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'to avoid that exact scenario'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'although an anacrocapitalist might suggest that'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as an alternative to taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the murdered victim is homeless, paid no police taxes -- police do not investigate y/n?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'morally obviously the answer is no the police should investigate'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Harperon: 'the status of the victim only matter if you view the punishing of crime merely as revenge'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'counter question though'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if a homeless person is murdered in your neighborhood would you want the police to investigate it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the answer is yes then I don't see a problem with your property taxes going to pay for it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no arperon we were discussing what would be fair ways to pay for government services'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so this has nothing to do with revenge'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'my hypothesis is that we, the people, want police to exist to protect us and our property. And my conclusion from this is that police services should be paid for by property taxes.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Harperon: 'I just meant that if you feel the only benefactor of the murder being investigated are the victim and his/her family then you must view revenge as the only purpose in punishing the crime at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't feel that way at all, I am merely espousing a "fair" system to pay for government services.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'if you are going to be a lawyer, do not be so "clueless" as to the gaping holes of simplistic (flippant?) "remedies" - but maybe the legal systems in the USA is so corrupted that "if a lawyer may fool the courts with atrociously bad arguments, heh, why not"'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nothing I have said so far has any place in a court argument'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am arguing about policy not law'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what ought we do, and why.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not what the law is, and did my client violate it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'policy, law, not much difference, since both are open to (mis)interpretation '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you've lost me zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I refer you to my original question, what besides protecting people and property from criminal activity do we want the police to do, as a society?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'presumably investigating murder would fall under protect persons from crime.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade may've watched (too much) "Law & Order" fiction  
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'maybe.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'nope, was kidding'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if it eases your worries know that unless something goes terribly wrong with my career plans I will never be practicing criminal law anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you still haven't answered my question though'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also do you have a better mechanism to pay for police services than the one I proposed?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is slightly worried if Emm became a politician or a judge - xchan
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does xchan mean?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bamboo: 'wrong channel?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'from context I don't think that was it'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'perhaps he meant he was leaving the channel'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'xchan - no comment - delete - disregard - no actually there - there but not there -- maybe'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'new topic, does debating things actually accomplish anything in this modern age of self-selectable news sources and political polarization?'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'may (also) depend on the "quality" of the debate contributions'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well then I am doomed, because clearly I suck at debating'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'nope, you did contribute (pasted or copied) reemingly relevant facts.  Some of your (part-formed, half-baked?) opinions require "work" (and perhaps experience)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'most of my ideas are rather well baked, but I tend to present them regardless of their political acceptability'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'unless we are particularly discussing political feasibility'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'you even "forced?" Tigernuts to debate properly (some), (as different to the usual Tigernuts trolling)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not sure if tigernuts really is a troll anymore than you are'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you just both believe some really wild (and wildly different) things.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think he actually says things for shock value or to derail conversations or the like'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as someone recently pointed out to me, just because someone disagrees with me doesn't make them a troll.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'refusing to actually engage in the debate, attempting to derail the conversation, or just saying thing to piss people off'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'those are troll behaviors'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is the temporary new number 6 here.  Zade suspects Tigernuts is pretending to be the new number 2, or maybe another paranoid inhabitant of The Island (Aardwolf or the Internets)
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(Tigernuts recently accused Zade of being a spy for some covert government agency -- classic trolling that .... unless Tigernuts is the covert spy !?!)'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'one comment does not make a troll I don't think, but I take your point.'
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts "believes" or says that "all socialists are communists!" (paraphrased) -- and then Tigernuts goes about accusing others (that seem socialist) of being communist. :( '
T3/r7/2013-12-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but "comrade Tigernuts" dislikes the Monarchy  (anybody that dislikes the British Monarchy is (likely) a comunist, since communists dislike the royalty.)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and now kmart is part of the sears holding company'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'oops'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'communism is socialism taken to it's natural conclusion, zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'last night Zade was criticising people on debate for being dishonest. Hypocrit!'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Report on the BBC shows not only are UK kids more stupid than their parents, but will be financially poorer'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'but their GCSE & A level grades are much better...'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Not really, GCSE's are a far weaken qualification than what they replaced'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'A levels are so weak compared to the old A-levels that universities typically have to have a foundation year or at least a foundation semester to bring undergraduates up to the level tehy would have expected'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it is what happens when you have a centrally controlled, planned and micromanaged education system'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's the same thing that happens when you have a centrally planned and controlled economy, it goes to shit'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Colorado shooter turned out to be an occultist, an active socialist activist and went to shoot members of the debate teams that were libertarian and/or conservative'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'libertarians can get pretty annoying at times, I think we all agree, but this is probably an excessive response'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was a typical socialist response to not being able to win an argument'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'yes, you are right'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'I mean, at least half the left wing population have turned a gun on someone and shot them at some point in their life'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that statement would be more correct if you'd said "in the past, left wing have turned a gun on the population and killed half of them"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'just last week, I was arguing with a post-trotsyite on the place of the continuous revolution in modern society, and I had to shoot him'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't support shooting people, but well done'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he/she will now be one with the universe and has achieved the ultimate equality'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'ah, hold on, I thought you were criticising people for shooting others, and now you think it's a good thing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'you seem a little bit of a conflicted individual? '
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm glad you understand the complexity of the situation'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'shooting people isn't something i'd want to do'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'perhaps you should see someone about it. You can probably get anger management councilling'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why? you're the person who shot someone'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'or better counselling'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'yeah, but he was asking for it, so that's a different issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you shot someone and you want me to have counselling? are you a closet democrat?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'no, I am a typical leftie -- what's your excuse?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't need an excuse'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what do you think of the mainstream media "editting" away reference to the shooters political beliefs and motivations for shooting?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Swalec shrugs
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'probably they didn't think it was terribly relevant'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rofl'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so it's only relevent if they're vaguely right wing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'not really, no'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unfortunately your statement is not backed by the facts'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'I mean, we had years of religious violence in the UK, and generally speaking no one ever mentioned the religion'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'likewise, the religious christian against muslim violence in Yugoslavia'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if a persons politics, beliefs or ideology informed or gave cause to the motivation for the act, then it's relevent'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'that depends, really'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you don't understand a persons reasons for doing something, how can you be fully informed of the story?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'I mean, if someone is motivated to cause an act by voices whispering in their head, the fact that they have voices might be relevant, but exactly what the said there voices said is not so'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it might be'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what if those voices came about because influence and the content inferred the motivation of that influence, or at least explained it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'and if you think the media is anything providing full information, then you are not fully informed'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think that's the whole point, media only provides the information necessary to portray the story in the way that they want. Media is biased. All of it. They all have a bias whether due to the way they're funded, the political leanings of the funders, or because of the ideology or agenda of the people/organisation themselves'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to believe otherwise is deeply foolish'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the best you can do is understand the biases and make appropriate allowances'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'so, you think the media has a left-wing bias?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'some is left, some is right'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't take a genius to work out which is which'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'and you think that the failure to report someones political opinions after they comit a relatively random act of violence is a strong indicator of this?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, the paper that originally posted the piece and later edited it is a left wing outlet'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not a stretch to consider that the editing was done in line with it's bias'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'probably a failure of editorial oversight that it was put in in the first place, but i guess that's the nature of 24hr immediate news'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'do you think that an unreasonable postulation?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or do you believe stories in media are not written with a political bias?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess Swalec drunk the arsenic kool aid and gave himself to the great socialist in the sky'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'difficult to see how they could not be. However, in general, I wouldn't use a case like this to support my petty conspiracy theory that all the world is against me. '
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'Nor would I choose to broadcast the ill-informed and rather offensive statement that attempting to murder random people is "typical left-wing behaviour".'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'but, hey, you may differ'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, that's a mischaracterisation - it IS a typical left wing ploy to attack people who they don't agree with and can't win an intellectual argument against. Maybe not with guns, but usually by calling them racist or some such'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and nowhere was it said the whole world was 'against me''
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: '[17 Dec 06:58:02] (Debate) Tigernuts: it was a typical socialist response to not being able to win an argument'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, attacking people is'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'so, well, sorry if sometimes you get criticised for being a racist, but hey, at least it's not as low down and pathetic as accusing people of being random murderers'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's true, the guy only actually managed to kill himself, so i guess i should randomly (but accurately) accuse him of being an attempted murderer'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Swalec waits patiently, although probably in vain, for an apology
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you want me to apologise for a materially insignicant element? sure, i'm sorry'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'thanks'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he managed to kill himself and only seriously injure 2 others. I'd rather they weren't hurt, but at least that's one less nutjob in the world'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'latest poll puts Obama in second place in all time worst approval ratings at this point in presidency, second only to nixon'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bode: 'like it matters'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'arbitrary measurement of the feelings of the sheeple, it's a sensor, nothing mroe'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Using a new revolutionary process that was funded by the Dept of Energy - US, a team of researchers have figured out a way to convert ALGAE into bio oil in less than an hour.  The process can run continually, like a refinery.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'What's more, a further water-processing step recovers methane  essentially natural gas  from the leftover plant material. The remaining nitrogen-rich water and recovered phosphorous can be recycled to grow more algae.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'a transportation system run by algae is closer than you think.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'On about one-third of the world's agricultural lands, farmers have maxed out the amount of rice, wheat and corn they can grow, according to a new study. '
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'and since those farmers are not replacing rare-minerals leeched out from those farms, the nutritional value of those foods is also dropping'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'It would be easy to replace the minerals.....just add rock dust every year after the harvest.  It takes about 6 months for rock dust, or wood ash to get the remineralization process going.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'don't think it is quite that easy, just because it is there doesn't mean it is avalable to a plant'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'I add rock dust to my gardens.....it is amazing the vegetables I get.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'of course I also use a fertilizer liquid made from rabbit manure, and a compost made from horse manure.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'some plants won't uptake at lower temps'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'greenhouse + wood stove = year round vegetables.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'not that you need a wood stove for greens.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'but if you want tomatoes in December....it helps.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'take more then a woodstover to keep them healthy here'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'I also like to grow long beans as long as possible.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k9ginkCl5Oo'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rofl, Drezner's response to accusation that mass phone data gathering is a breech of the 4th ammendment was: "If we didn't collect all this data and had to get a warrant for each case, it would be difficult because every phone company stores data differently"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"rofl" indicates that Tigernuts is saying "Good show, Drezner"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'this was the funniest headline though: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/16/21927658-us-nato-express-concern-over-russian-missile-deployment-near-border?lite'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'using the Tigernuts faulty logic, "Oppressive feudalism is capitalism taken to natural conclusioo".'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in what way?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'btw, Drezner was both stating the obvious and also not attempting to defend the indefencable'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts prods Zade into action!
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'currently, (unregulated) capitalism is resulting in all the world riches being consolidated into the coffers of several thousand humans -- the other poors human are treated as inconsequential selfs (and the Tigernuts flat-rate tax in that scenario is an abomination)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'where is there "unregulated capitalism" currently?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so no, i don't agree then, since capitalism wouldn't be oppressive feudalism, just corporate feudalism '
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'all I see when I look around is regulated corporatism and mercantilism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and no, flat rate tax is not an abomination, it's efficient and fair'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no flat rate taxes are inherently regressive'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and corporatism won't be regulated if they push TPP through'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at least, won't be regulated by sovereign governments'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(all the tax revenues likely shall be redirected to the providing for rich in that scenario -- (the poor may perhaps benefit or starve from the pennies of their paid flat-rate taxes)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and income tax is considerably less regressive than sales tax, fuel duty, national insurance tax and property tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'currently, corporate feudalism is becoming oppressive'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, thank globalisation for that'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am actually in the process of trying to write a paper that hypothesises that no matter how taxes are assigned the markets are pressured to cause the tax burden to fall on those who have the least barganing power (the middle class and working poor) and those with the most barganing power (the ultra rich) end up bearing the least of the burden'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you require an academic paper to state the bleeding obvious?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'Emm, not in Sweden for sure'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'homer I think you are misunderstanding the point I am raising'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) HomerSimpson: 'here, we tax the shit out of anyone who makes anything that resembles a fortune ;)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"socialism shall be sesame street okay if they push XYZ and ABC and D thru W with the numbers 0 through 9 through" - (expletive buzzwords) (Toilet Paper Program, bah!)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the question isn't who pays what at the tax bill, but rather what effects that has on market prices and buying power'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just because rich people are paying more in taxes doesn't mean they are worse off, if they are able to demand more pay to compensate them for the higher taxes.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'economics is astonishingly unscientific'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a combination of statistics, ideology and bullshit'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the extreme rich are already demanding more and also demanding to pay less or no taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is not scientific (but not astonishingly)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(hackneyed cliches, tsk)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'postive economics seems pretty scientific to me.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'normative economics is really just math based ethics.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you cannot accurately model the economic system without simplifying it so much that it is no longer real-world applicable'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they could, then we wouldn't all be broke'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(as countries)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again tigernuts you are conflating complex and incomprehensible'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no i'm not'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to prove a model you have to apply it to real world and have it produce good results'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is a mole troll (stooge), yet to determine for which (society-undermining) camp Tigernuts is working'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which people do all the time'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they do all the time and come up short'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is currently in naysayer mode'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'apparently'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'realist mode'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how is making blanket statements unsupported by data realism?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"can't be done" mode is not "realist" mode (not an effective mode)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm looking at the 90%+ gdp to debt ratio and the 90billion deficit (being hidden by dodgy accounting procedures because in reality it's double that) and thinking: This is proof that economists that informed government policy over the last 30 years are not good models'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i didn't say you couldn't model, i said such models are rubbish'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i can build a rubbish model'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'could you provide some evidence that government policy has been significantly affected by economists?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'horrible government policy does not have any particular implications on economics'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'plus model building is only a tiny part of positive economics'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'a lot of it is data mining, and hypothesis testing'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so Tigernuts is looking (at something gooblededook) and coming up "clueless", and then expressing a naysayer opinion ("the sky is falling" loosely paraphrased)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're clutching at straws, Zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is not clutching at the Tigernuts straws
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you'll have to excuse me if i put absolutely no faith in economists who have the predictive power of badger entrails'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since the economy is such shit-hot state i guess they must have got it sussed'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osbornes-favourite-economists-reinhart-1838219'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'on the other hand, if you come up with a paper that pushes flat rate income tax, flat rate sales tax, corporation tax that involves a percentage of profits or percentage of turnover, and a few targeted product-specific duties, then i'll probably endorse it'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the Tigernuts endorsement is not worth much in positve values'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think he just said that he would support any paper that agreed with his preconceptions'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nothing to do with preconceptions and everything to do with ideology'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'alternatively, you can suggest what you like so long as it doesn't cost me more money or freedom'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what country do you live in tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '"live" is a strong term, "survive" would be more accurate'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nothing I suggest would cost you any money or freedom'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i find that extremely hard to believe'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since I am not suggesting policy for the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but for the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well there you go, the only way i can judge is how it would affect me were i in the USA, i would weight it up based on freedom, liberty, and fairness'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so suggest away'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have made my suggestions, taxes for police and military should be based on real and personal property values (the value of the things being protected), other taxes should be used to counter externalities that are not easily resolvable via individual or class liability mechanisms.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'taxes should not be based on things that we do not wish to discourage (so income and payroll taxes are bad).'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so basically a regressive property tax (which is no different to now and based on a lie since police do not protect personal property) and externality taxes that make national industry, especially SME's less competitive leading to job losses'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are insane.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which I guess with a name like tigernuts makes sense'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those are the direct results of what you're saying'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'police do not protect personal property?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, they do not'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nor do they have a duty to protect you'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the purpose of the police are the enforce statutes and protect the establishment'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whatever you think they SHOULD be doing is irrelevant and/or secondary'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'secondly, as we have all experienced, if you add tax or cost burden to industry at home, it moves somewhere else. This is why fuck all is built in the UK and US where costs are high, and everything is built in China, Mexica and Central America where costs are low'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'none of this is crazy, insane, none of it requires degrees in economics'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so if your car gets stolen police will not investigate it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'extremely unlikely'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if it gets found they will not return it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it gets found, they will impound it and charge you a signifcant fee for it's storage and another fee for it's release'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think you have a warped view of how police function'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'generally the best you can hope for if you get something nicked is a crime report number so you can give it to your insurance company'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'are you smoking crack? that's what happens'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unless you're an important person, you aren't going to have it investigated'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and all of this is actually beside the point since the question is not what police do, but rather why we, as citizens and taxpayers, should support their existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, i don't'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(at least, not in their current format/purpose)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well thats a personal problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'do you think national defense is a valid thing to pay for?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what they do is entirely relevent to whether we support their existence'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and why do you think we should support the existence of national defense forces'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i would support the existence of a police force if their sole purpose was to use law to protect me and my property from the misdeeds of others'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'protecting the country from foreign invaders is an important service that cannot be provided at an individual level, but is needed by all'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as long as you don't mean only protecting you from others'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as in police shouldn't protect others from your misdeeds'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or protect others from others misdeeds for that matter'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'by protecting me from the misdeeds of others, i mean implicitly everyone from the misdeeds of everyone else'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'right'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you agree that we should have some police, even if the ones we have now aren't doing it rit'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'right even'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'subject to that 180 degree role change, yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and in this ideal country where we have police and military that actually do what we want them to do instead of starting foreign wars and harrassing people for personal choices that harm noone'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how should we fairly pay for those services?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'out of general taxation as laid out in the 3 areas mentioned previously'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yeah this is pointless you are immune to reason'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'im done arguing with you'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'socialist coming out now? you don't like my answers so it's pointless?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does that have to do with socialism?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you asked specific questions and i gave you answers along with justification'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what justification for income tax?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most efficient way of collecting revenue based upon someone's ability to pay'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so who is the socialist now?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you just proposed a system of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'pretty much classic marxism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'correct'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's also a very broad term'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since the only type of taxation it would preclude is one which has inverse bands, or is zero, or is 100%, or is a fixed dollar amount'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'socialism doesn't work, it has been proven in the real world time and time again'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it works if you have a small enough population and an incorruptable system'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and a population that is content to participate'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'when you tax income you depress the economy'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well there's your luck'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you say you worry that a carbon tax would depress the economy, but assuming you used the revenues to directly offset income taxes it would probably improve the economy.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'carbon taxes would disproportionately affect the poor by putting prices up'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'How so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'enery consumption is strongly correlated with income'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate and also with wealth'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'energy is something that is purchased across the wealth spectrum. If sales tax is regressive, then carbon tax will also be'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK's green taxes on electric are a prime example'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'real life example proving the point. Similar has happened in Australia'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'energy use is strongly correlated with income, while general purchases is not'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's bull'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you can make either one regressive or not regressive'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but its easier with energy than with general sales'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you're taxing the supplier then you don't have an option to make it non-regressive'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm, that was Christianity, that is not Marxism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because you cannot dictate to the energy companies that they charge poor people less than rich people'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'uhm zade it was a QUOTE from Marx'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we can and do'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you cannot here'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'neither could they, it would be against EU law'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we are talking about the US (as stated at the beginning)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'aha!  Emm admits to reading Marx'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if TPP gets passed, US will not be able to'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have a BS in Philosophy of course I have read Marx'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have also read the bible, that doesn't make me christian'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'shouldn't that be a BA in Philosophy?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you can get either at most universities'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'calling philosophy a science is a bit of a fucking push'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the diference between a BA and a BS has to do with how much general studies was part of the program.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '1) philosophy is one of the two pure sciences'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '2) BS has very little to do with whether the subject is a science or not.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm said a "BS"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Bachelor of Science, clue is in the name'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'BSc'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you can get a BS in english too'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I can't imagine calling english a science :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also you can get a doctorate of philosophy in physics'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the degree names don't really corrispond to the subject matter'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can get a BSc in WindSurfing too, doesn't make it right or worthwhile'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well I wasn't arguing that'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'off to bed, i'll leave you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3MHpvTj86f0'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the slogan was common to the socialist movement and was first used by Louis Blanc in 1839, in "The organization of work". The origin of this phrasing has also been attributed to the French utopian Morelly, who proposed in his 1755 Code of Nature "Sacred and Fundamental Laws that would tear out the roots of vice and of all the evils of a society"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the gist of the phrase was also used in separate sections of the New Testament   Matthew 25:15: " .. to each according to his ability .."'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'are you still on that zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'socialists (and Karl Marx) plagiarised or copied concepts from the New Testament'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'be that as it may'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the point was that he was espousing a marxist sentiment'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I made the point, he admitted to it, and we moved on'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why are you still talking about it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'yep, when you false accuse somebody of Marxism based upon Christian concepts, that is bad'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it isn't false that was a marxist sentiment'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the fact that marx got some of his sentiments from prior socialist works (including the new testament) is immaterial'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'wrong inference by you though'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wat inerence did I make?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'inference even (stupid f key)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'christians use the sentiments expressed by Jesus Christ, the apostles, and Paul, and they are likely to take umbrage against you Emm for accusing them of Marxism (you are a pariah)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'decent Socialists despise Communists, and despise Marxism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_need'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'In the novel "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand, the slogan is used by anti-capitalist factions. Rand spends time refuting the idea behind the slogan, and it was Rand's belief that the phrase was actually an expression of sadism. (in part II chapter 10)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"And if you ever want to see pure evil you should see the way her eyes glinted when she watched some man who'd talked back to her once and who'd just heard his name on the list of those getting nothing above basic pittance. And when you saw it, you saw the real motive of any person who's ever preached 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need'."'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade you are an idiot sorry'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm, you are clueless and callous'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'communism is a form of socialism, and Marx is the father of both of them'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes there were earlier socialist writers, but he solidified it and made it rigorous'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'communism is not a form of decent socialism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who said decent?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Jesus Christ is perhaps the father of decent socialism '
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sure he is zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we have soo many of his writtings available to make that claim'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'socialism must be decent to be (decent) socialism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does that even mean?'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jhav: 'I can't help but feel you're tiptoeing around No True Scotsman.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm. you are clueless'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm is agreeing with that Jhav person again...
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"seeing you shall see yet not perceive"'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade you are ignorant'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own confusion: wandering stars, to whom the storm of darkness is reserved for ever." - Jude 1:13'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'communism is a form of socialism, end of story'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'JC probably didn't exist and if he did he certainly wasn't anything like the NT describes him'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"But these men blaspheme whatever things they know not: and what things soever they naturally know, like dumb beasts, in these they are corrupted." Jude: 1:10'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and while the NT is vaguely socialistic, it cannot be really considered the beginning of socialism'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and quoting (or misquoting) some particular flavor of the NT does not actually make any sort of argument.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"In like manner, these men also defile the flesh and despise dominion and blaspheme majesty." Jude 1:8'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"Who told you that in the last time there should come mockers, walking according to their own desires in ungodlinesses." Jude 1:18'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think zade is attempting to get me to put him back on ignore :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jhav: 'I don't think it would change anything in any way if you did.  He'll natter on with or without you.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jhav: 'Possibly quite a bit less, actually.'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"These are they who separate themselves, sensual men, having not the Spirit." Jude 1:19'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade (in Tiny Tim voice) "tiptoe through the tulips, .. what's this .. a 'No True Scotsman' ?!?"  (evil grin)  "Stomping through the ..."
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i thought pretty much all the gains were linear'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and of course the knowledge of mud/database'
T3/r7/2013-12-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in reality more like 120-130'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Marx is dead and his ideas should die with him'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'isn't anyone else concerned that Google, in the very recent past, have bought up 4 of the top companies that had been developing animal/humanoid robots for the military'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Amorok: 'so? Earth is running out of animal '
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'earth animals don't exist for the purpose of killing humans, Google robots do'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK BoE want to bring in plastic banknotes'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'it's a left wing plot -- once the money lasts for ever, they will be able to redistribute it more easily'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it won't last for ever, it's not the reason they want to bring it in'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the clue is in the fact that as they bring new notes in, the old ones stop being legal currency'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they change our notes here every 10yrs or so to prevent the public holding cash'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'yep, that's why they do it'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'I mean, that whole stuff about preventing counterfeit is just, well, counterfeit'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, on record, it's because the UK's population is welfare-dependant, and that welfare dependence requires that they monitor people's bank accounts because entitlement is wealth-dependent'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'counterfeiting notes hasn't been a problem for decades'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'you are right, everybody just uses plastic these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'digital fraud is far easier and more efficient, and easier to commit on a grand scale'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, that's why banks commit it :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm all for plastic notes, they wash! provided they don't make the old notes illegal. If they just took them out of circulation naturally as they came in (which is how they remove dirty and damaged notes) then I would have no issue with it'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'well, there will be an overlap period'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'I suspect the plastic ones will require quite a few changes though, for example, to money handling machines'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'I doubt it's in anyones interest to have two systems overlapping for a long time'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'latest readings show that medicaid will swipe money from your estate after you die if you're over 55 and qualified for free healtcare'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the overlap period will be short and aimed at corporate concerns'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news, democrats are blocking gop bid to halt cuts to retired military vets pensions'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you're a scumbag who lives of the state and has multiple kids you can't afford, they'll throw money at you all day, but if you fought for your country in illegal wars abroad, you get screwed'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsIpQpR2ZaI'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the ryan-murray budget deal passing is a slap in the face for americans'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'man has cops called on him by neighbour for washing his own car in his own yard'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, "The Big Picture" TV program is hilarious, Emm would love it'
T3/r7/2013-12-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'slowing of stimulus has been announced, expect stock market to fall'
T3/r7/2013-12-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i see the fake liberals are attacking duck dynasty guy because he's not gay'
T3/r7/2013-12-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'those duck dynasty guys are duck murderers'
T3/r7/2013-12-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'though killing Scrooge McDuck may be honorable, murdering the poor ducks is not acceptable'
T3/r7/2013-12-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'may be also okay to kill Daffy Duck'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'scrooge mcDuck is the best of the ducks'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like Ohio are moving to prevent kids being given a proper education by law'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'meanwhile, New York cCity votes to ban e-cigs in public'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'For the budget years 2014-2015, Texas will have a budget surplus of almost $3 billion.....And Since the economy tanked in 2008, Texas has regained all the lost jobs and added another 600,000 new jobs to the state economy as of 2013.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'cool, so the solution to unemployment, is to move to texas'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'let's bus all the unemployed to texas.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can only go to texas if you promise to live by the constitution and stop voting for more government and taking peoples gun rights'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think that it is all the new wind turbines going up in Texas that has made everything better there.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'We will send them back.   Keep your welfare problems to yourself. :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'rizgoth is there a way for everyone to be happy, without deporting anyone?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, keep the spongers out'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'sure, go start a business.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'send them to california'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'ok, i want to go start a business. but my state's incorporation costs are lame. should i move to nevada first, or just pay for a registered agent?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'Indiana also has also been doing relatively well (as compared to the rest of the country) and we have also greatly expanded our commericial wind power in the last few years.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Texas is 3rd in the nation of new business starts, behind Rhode Island and Nevada, because they are corporate sweet spots for businesses.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'i dunno man, i hear horror stories about gary indiana from the guys who are roomates of the drug dealer down the parking lot from me'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'er Delaware, not rhode island.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'isn't Gary'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'isn't Gary, Indiana that deserted place?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'well i know the roomate definitely doesnt live there anymore'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'Yes Gary isn't doing well, but that is mostly Chicago and Michigan's fault'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'well, if your roommate still lived there...then you'd be living there as well :P'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'abelinc, not my roomate.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and overall the state is still doing great.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'the roomate of the drug dealer who lives down the parking lot from me.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am still not sure how that puts you as not living there too'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'unless the parkinglot crosses state lines or something'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Oil/Gas revenue in Texas is up 68% since 2010.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'helluva long drug run'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'abelinc nah, dont let my lab work fool you, i dont do drugs'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Only North Dakota has increased its oil and gas production more than Texas in the last 3 years.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'rizgoth what's your view on that keystone pipe '
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Depends'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'If it is built, the price of oil will increase in the middle of the US and Canada.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'But at the same time, it will allow Canada to export 2 million barrels a day down to the gulf to be exported overseas.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Right now all that oil is being shipped out of north dakota by rail.......a pipeline sucking 500,000 barrels a day would slow that a bit until production picked up again.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Right now, the middle states are enjoying a lower cost for gasoline because of the oil glut, WTI crude is selling for about $10-15 less than north sea crude, but that margin is getting much smaller as more oil is being shipped out of the midwest to the coasts.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'What would be better though is to build the Alaska Gas Pipeline....that project would cost $15 billion or so, and allow natgas to be sent to Asia.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'gas is $8.20 a gallon'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's what green taxes do to you'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Alaska has about $200 billion of natgas sitting in the ground waiting to be exported to Asia, but the oil companies wont spend the money to build the pipeline.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'rizgoth do you ever feel like life is too short'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'nope, but the day is too short.....add another 12 hours to it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'hmm, your gas taxes pay for a mass transit system and vacations to the med for its managers.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'of course I would love to see the federal gas tax in the US increased by 1 penny per year for 10 years.  The feds are really good at spreading the highway funds around to fix and build new roads.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they are?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Texas has some of the best roads around. :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'thanks to federal and state gas taxes.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'and your lack of winter weather'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'here in Illinois, they basically slop down asphalt and call it a road'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'in some places, i can't tell what's the original road, and what's the patched (fixed?) road'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'Illinois is the only state where the governers make the liscense plates.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Here they add rubber from old tires to the concrete mix to help the roads last 20% longer....most roads here are concrete, not asphalt.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'only 3 of our governors'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't pay for that, riz'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'and the last one is in Denver :D'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'concrete doesn't work here, it heaves'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'well, to be fair, our weather can go from -20 to 110 over the course of a year, so I'm sure that makes it much harder on the roads'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but other states seem to deal with the same issues'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to be fair, our roads are in better nick than yours, but also constantly busy'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so out of the last 30 years, how many of those years did is it true for that the then occupent of the State House eventually went to jail?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Then your engineers should dig down to below the frost line and then refill it with stable gravel, then build the road....would add about 35% to the cost, but it would reduce the heaves a lot, and the road would last longer....'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'They do that in Alaska.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'yeah, but then no one would get paid to patch the roads constantly'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you think it's a jobs-for-the-boys scam, Razkin?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I'm just saying, there's a lot of bids that seem to go to a very select few contractors here'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'same happens here, and i totally agree'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'especially up here near Chicago'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well Chicago is mafia government central'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'I guess that is part of the reason why Texas has been so successful, we try to control that kind of stuff, and not spend money on things that are not really necessary.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'heh'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'Union wages aren't exactly bad, here, either'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'careful, the NSA monitors Aard carefully'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you mean your state isn't run by democrat douchebags and corporate mafia, Rizgoth?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'no, Texas is business friendly, but in a fair and balanced way....It tries not to do favoritism.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what do you know of Thom Hartmann?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Houston has had a lesbian mayor for 2 terms now, and was just elected to a 3rd term.....Houston is one of the fastest growing cities in the country jobwise and in many other categories.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'and since the jet stream changed course, even the air smells a little better in houston. :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so it looks like Glen Greenwald is a sell-out'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'tigernuts it looks vladimir putin likes syria'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not a good role model for homosexuals, is he?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'syrian looks like it might splinter, kurds want their own country, and they have a good case'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'I make decisions on people based on what they do, not who they are.  As long as Texas keeps growing which it has been.....even rick perry has done a good job.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'rick would have been a pretty good president.....'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than his HPV vaccine thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'tiger i still would rather get a smallpox shot'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'isn't smallpox extinct?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'i mean seriously, whats a greater risk. smallpox being dug up/ and or sent in by the ukrainians, the chinese, the tajiks, or so on'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'isn't likely'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'or ... hpv being given to a computer user'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'i mean sure, i could see the example of a highly promiscuous person engaging in liasons with multiple partners in a state of altered consciousness from a mix of viagra, adam, and alcohol'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'adam?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'but how often does a person who spends 8 hours+ a day at a computer, get laid?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's nothing wrong with offering sexually active girls a free HPV vaccine, but forcing all 11yr olds to have it is a bit of a stretch'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'especially given that it's such a dodgy vaccine in the first palce'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'far worse than those dumbarse flu shots they've been pushing for a couple of years'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'tiger not only is it of questionable benefit, but i think letting parents wait until their girls are, oh, of legal age to have sex, might make more sense'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's one aspect of why not to, VD, but also, mandatory?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'tiger mandatory is such a funny thing. in my state they have waver forms that say they wont let you wave it just cause you say no, but they dont exactly go and check out the reasons people get a waiver'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'if you wait until they are of "legal age", many will contract the disease before receiving the vaccine'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'vost really ? how? by being raped? is it a vaccine against diseases carried by rapists?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'are you really that naive?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i have to get on my libertarian high horse here: Provide the education. Provide the vaccine free if it's wanted. Don't force everyone'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'vost explain to me who came up with the idea that 11 year old girls are going around having sex with partners that have hpv'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think the idea is that you vaccinate before there is much chance that they have had sex at all since such a large proportion of the adult population has HPV'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well it is true that girls are promiscuous these days, VD'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '(I am not here trying to advocate for or against it since I have no dog in the race)'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's the degredation of culture and parenting for you'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'emm okay, so why not have parents vaccinate the girls when they feel that the timing is right'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or if the girls want it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'is it that society doesnt think parents will be aware of whether or not their daughters are having sex?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tintin: 'I thought those vaccines worked for like 3 out of 100 variations of the virus?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not sure, tintin, certainly the flu virus is a boondoggle to make drugs companies a fortune'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'emm on a side note, i havent heard of a large portion of the adult population having hpv. mostly just people in the 20-40 age bracket'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes they are supposed to work for the strains that have been shown to cause cervical cancer'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd never even heard of HPV in the UK, let alone a vaccine'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'tigernuts there are plenty of vaccines i'd love to get before i'd worry over the flu, but some people have immune systems already stressed or compromised by other problems, so i cant say flu shots are a total waste'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'two strains - which cause 70% of cervical cancer'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: '"waiting til marriage" or " getting tested with your partner before you have sex " both seem like solid alternatives to vaccination to me'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Vost rolls on the floor laughing at 2/3 Flying VampireDude's antics!
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'so i can't personally advocate a mandantory vaccination of someone '
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tintin: 'those alternatives do not generate much profit, do they?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'tintin well, marriages are pretty dang expensive, you gotta buy the florist, rent space, calligraphers, dresses, tuxes, etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'and dude, the rings...'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'incidentally, i've had to get my hep a and hep b shots 6 times, because schools wouldnt recognize the shot record from the v.a. or the previous school. '
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'so if i ever get hep a or hep b, i'm gonna be pissed off.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'but its next to impossible to get some vaccines that are in my person circumstance, far more important'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'so i'm a little irked by how widespread vaccines for things that i have very low risk for, i.e. flu, are'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'they should check your Hep B antibody status before re-vaccinating'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'nah, the student health insurance covers the shot, not the antibody test'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'Hep A vaccine wears off fairly soon'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Vost goes, "Hmmmm."
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'why do you need Hep A & B vaccination?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'are you in a high risk job?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'vost nah, its a requirement for the school'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'just a regular school?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'teaching kids?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: '-5 h'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'h -5'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'oops'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what's Texas's income tax and sales tax rates?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Modi: 'they have property tax not income tax iirc'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so not 70% then :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'texas has no income tax.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'sales tax is 8.5%'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what is it in california?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: '10% or so if you make more than $200 a year....:p'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'nah, the top rate is 9.5% or so for people who make more than $600k or something.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which makes the total tax rate what?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'much higher than Texas.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'I would move to Canada before moving to California, if it was my choice.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'cackle'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'At least we can balance our budget.....and make a surplus during a recession....'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'then again, Texas is not in a recession, and never was.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and isn't shit'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'woo, it is going to be 28 F on sunday night.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and?'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Thats it....damn canadian cold air :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'was that here the other night, typical for the time of year'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'it is 76 F right now.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's absurdly hot'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'nah, 76 F is perfect, that is our normal winter high temp.'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'we are in a mini ice age this winter. :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tintin: 'I'm sure that's your own fault for not using enough fossil fuels'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'exactly, do your part and use more gasoline!'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Rizgoth for a warmer Texas! 2014!'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well there you go, mini ice age, that'll be global warming'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'a "Die Hard" movie was renamed to "Piège de cristal"  in french instead of "Meurs Dur" or "Mourez Dur"'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'french channels are like "guess the english name" of the movies or tvseries already seen'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"die-hard" in french is idiomatically "a tout crin", but Bruce Willis was follicle-challenged  ("le crin" is "the hair")'
T3/r7/2013-12-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but "Piège de cristal" is ? "Crystal Snare/Trap" - maybe alludes to the skyscrapers as glass-window building traps'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'French are just being French. They are best ignored'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bunch of commies'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'merry christmas, one and all, freedom seekers and commie bastards'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'damned quiet tonight, where are all the trolls?'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'they are raising eating rabbits under a bridge'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: '-and-'
T3/r7/2013-12-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i wonder if there are more trolls online because the lack of investment in infrastructure means that their homes are no longer safe'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so now it appears sailors who helped in the aftermath of Fukishima meltdown are coming out with cancer'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'coincidence/outliers/surely that can't be true'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'everyone knows radiation is good for you'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rofl, nogs, and the bulk of the labour force up there are destitute, homeless, and people forced to go there, provided by the japanese mafia'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(which sounds even crazier, but is nevertheless true)'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/25/us-fukushima-workers-specialreport-idUSBRE99O04320131025'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not much different to Qatar using slaves to build soccer stadiums for the 2022 world cup'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'confiscating passports when they enter and keeping them in subhuman conditions without pay'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks, obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thank the west for their allies'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but as long as we're sanctioning Iran and bombing Syria, everything's OK, right?'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'while we're western society bashing, why is it that we are moralised at by our governments and have absurd laws and taxes applied in the name of saving the planet, while at the same time the government achieves their 'targets' by shipping all their poisonous electrical waste to africa where it causes misery and illness to the population?'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the reality of it makes a mockery and a hypocrite out of anyone who supports green legislation as set out by current governments and supragovermental organisations like the EU and the UN'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'more i hear about the recent budget passed, the more disgusting it is'
T3/r7/2013-12-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qLNNwHd75xo'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'i was driving a car in the crhistmas rain and i think i stumbled on something.. phshysoclogical thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'there were pools of water.. and a lot of cars '
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'and it was incredibly annoying'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'there was a tiny challenge to keep the car on right track whenever there was a pool of water or another car coming.'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'hm.. and a huge difference in the annoyance level between approaching the pool(or a car) as a nuisance or as a racing challenge.'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'but there is a simple switch.. that's what i found out'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'its possible to switch between these attitudes'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'the difference between these two was that when it was the nuisance - it had some worry. when "racing", there was exitement. absolutele everything else was the same.'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'what you think about that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'oh, and when "racing" then there was this 2 second ahead looking thing. when "what a nuisance" then it was like "oh, why dont you kill yourself, you dirty pool"'
T3/r7/2013-12-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bay area residents banned from burning wood on xmas? Why don't bay area residents tell their dictaters to piss orf?'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'NBC released a useful video guide: "How to christmas shop while being black"'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tintin: 'So you have to make sure you're not white when you go shopping?'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'take a white friend'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but not a hot one, since that has a different effect'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess doing a michael jackson would also work (becoming white, I mean, not fiddling with kids)'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nobody had to have a cold christmas because of San Francisco's authoritarians bylaws?'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'San Francisco Bay banned burning wood on Xmas ?!? -- darn, no Xmas-day KKK crosses'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'no disposing of body-parts at the Xmas-day bonfire either :('
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'didn't you find that move disagreeable, zade, or are you all for governments micromanaging peoples lives?'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there is likely a valid reason that Xmasday wood-burning was banned in the San Francisco Bay area  (or maybe not)'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'mumerous area-wide fire-hazards, criminal disposal of evidence, criminal processing activity (burning insulation off stolen copper wire), pollution'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well, given that most people don't have wood burners or open fires, i think that unlikely. Secondly, criminal evidence? Burning insualtion off stolen copper wire? Maybe we should ban watching television incase it was stolen. Perhaps we should ban cooking christmas turkey incase it was fed stolen grain'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the local bylaw was inspired by the same bullshit bad science green lobby that pushed electric cars '
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'an extra 5.5%+ tax on health insurance policies in the USA goes into effect on Jan 1'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '+  a raise in income tax of 0.9% and 3.8% increase in capital gains tax for families earning more than $250k'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'merry xmas, love from the GOP and the Democrats'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in UK news, people who bought houses on flood plains shocked to discover their houses flood after heavy rainstorms'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Dashiell snickers with Tigernuts about their shared secret.
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dashiell: 'Fancy that now.'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't snicker, headline news for 2 days, just like when storm surges caused a fair bit of flooding and damage a few weeks ago. They all had 3 or 4 days warning yet still people without insurance got wiped out'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks, obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thank 60 years of government handholding for that'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they wanted a dumbed down population entirely dependant on the government, they've got it'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like 780 property owners on New Jersey Shore are standing up to "Fast Bastard" Christie, the political heavyweight who is trying to rob land from them without paying due compensation'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'you use the term political heavyweight very appropriately, in his case'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'hah..get it, cuz he's fat'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Endtime bows deeply.
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm glad it wasn't lost on you'
T3/r7/2013-12-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '[26 Dec 07:17:55] (Debate) Tigernuts (trolled): '.. Burning insulation off stolen copper wire?  Maybe .. ban watching television incase it was stolen." <-- Tigernuts "remedy" to theft pollution (and fraudulent recycling) is to ban television watching '
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'liberal talk radio is dying as schulz, hartmann, rhodes and colmes are thrown off the air in New York, in Los Angeles, Miller Rhodes, Press and Cruz are being dumped in favour of Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity. San Francisco are also dumping leftists. Is this another swing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'only government-sponsored NPR remains in many major markets'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'NPR isn't truly liberal talk radio'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'Although many of the hosts and guests are definitely liberal it isn't liberal talk radio'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tasty Tipro: 'but there is liberal talk radio on Sirius/XM radio'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, i was wondering though if this change was behind the curve, or a reaction?'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'especially when i see polls coming from left wing sources that suggest the left will lose control of the senate in 14'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i see US are making friends in India as a result of TSA performing legal 'rape' of one of their diplomats'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'They say exactly six people managed to successfully sign up for healthcare on healthcare.gov on rollout day.... sounds like amazing success'
T3/r7/2013-12-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yup'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'A Pennsylvania court has declared that a state trooper who was previously hospitalized for depression should be banned from possessing firearms while off-duty, but should still be allowed to carry a gun while on-duty, granting him special concession while serving the state which he is not afforded as a private citizen.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wtf?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just to put things into perspective, the tax rises brought in by Obamacare amount to more money than the entire GDP of Denmark, Austria, Finland, Greece, Iraeland, Israel, Argentina, or Taiwan'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just keep telling yourself that it's free healthcare'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'what is the cost of *not* implementing Obamacare?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '0'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're right, the cost of unwinding is an administrative cost to all those insurance companies that had their hands in the till'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you need to calculate the benefits of having a healthier population too'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'does having less healthcare for more cost make you a healthier population?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'maybe in some loony parallel universe, but it doesn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'higher cost to those who previously could afford it, and accessible healthcare to those who couldn't i assume'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, that's not accurate at all, redryn'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'no?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'why not'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nobody is suddenly getting access to healthcare when they didn't already have it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'people rarely include the economic cost of potential entrepreneurs who remain in dead-end jobs simply because said crappy job includes health benefits'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a tiny percentage are getting access to health -insurance- which is not the same thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'all the poor people bought insurance previously?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't need insurance to have access to healthcare'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'can the average person afford healthcare when shit happens?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't have health insurance and i have access to healthcare. It's shit national  healthcare but it's healthcare all the same'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if shit happens, nobody can afford it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'can you afford healthcare if you get cancer tomorrow and need a 50,000 op?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that's the point of insurance'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'risk spreading'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's the theory, the practice is a legal means of gouging money out of people'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'well then the problem is with implementation rather than theory?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only practical method of spreading the risk is to have a single-payer government provided healthcare system'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unfortunately that leads to terrible care'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yea well'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all you're doing in the US is destroying the existing system and replacing it with a much more expensive one where the banks and insurance companies can make a fortune in a controlled monopoly'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the point is that insurance does make a difference '
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you would have done far better to tax health insurance and use it to provide a subsidised government plan'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'so you have to calculate the difference between people who land into shit without insurance previously and are now covered'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'not saying that necessarily it's better now'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but you can't just ignore the main benefit that was intended'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the difference is before they would have received charity care for free or reduced cost, now they get to use their subsisides insurance plan. There is no difference'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'did charity care exist for everyone?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you have figures for that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'was it universally available, everywhere?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'subject to geographical variations, the system was available'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'that is easy to state from the comfort of your universal health coverage. i live it, it certainly wasn't available to me'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that means nothing'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'insurance was available too...'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well what if under the new system, none of your local hospitals are participants? same situation'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're arguing over a difference in branding, that's all'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'well isn't the grand plan to have everyone covered?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'as opposed to spotty 'if you're lucky' charity'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'never happens, redryn, even in a fully centralised system like the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and i doubt the charities could afford really expensive stuff'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i would expect mandatory schemes to cover more than random charities'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but feel free to disprove me'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all you're doing is replacing "we can't afford this because we're a charity" with "we can't afford this, we're the government"'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the government isn't paying it...'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'insurance is paying it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the downside is once you have government paying, there's no private sector alternative to go to'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and insurance cannot 'not afford it''
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, in a government system like the UK, insurance does not pay for it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i thought we were talking about obamacare'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and in an insurance system, the insurance does not necessarily cover it, they can exclude treatments that are expensive'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you will evitably find that instead of the 50k op, you'll instead have 1k chemo'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'idk how bad your consumer protection laws are i guess'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but i can see a simple solution to that'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'insurance companies are for making money, not paying for your cancer care'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'being in the king capitalist country of the world, i thought you'd have noticed this'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm in the king capitalist country? :o'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'truer than you know :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yea true i guess'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but really, pinning all your health hopes on insurance companies, that's madness'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'honestly the best thing that will come from Obamacare in the end will be the hospitals having to publicize their charge master sheets. gonna make a huge difference in my opinion'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i don't know the details on how the law was structured'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but they should have been legislated as to the types of treatments they must cover'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the fact that 50k ops are hella expensive are a matter of risk spreading'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and increases the premiums for everyone'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'definitely the average person will be paying higher premiums'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree, endtime, though that could have been done without upending the whole health system and charging people double'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but this is to be balanced against the advantage of people now having access to expensive healthcare'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i don't know if it's better or worse'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are tons of measure that didn't need a 13,000 law to improve the balance sheets of select financial institutions'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm just saying i think it's unfair for you to say there's 0 benefits of the scheme'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's my judgement, redryn'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if you accounted for the benefits and explained why they're negligble sure'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it singlehandedly failed to address the issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but you need serious statistics to do that'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as opposed to using bogus statistics?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'using "how many people have a health insurance policy" as a measure of how well your health system works is terrible'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'after all, if UK used that measure it'd be <5%'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'just cos the government uses shitty arguments doesn't mean you should use shitty counterarguments :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'then you'll just get ignored as much as them :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'strawman, redryn'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i've already said what would have been a better method'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'centralized government as insurer?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i think it's odd you would advocate that'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are huge dangers in having government-mandated corporate monopolies, we see it here with our energy and water'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'given the shift to privatization'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'are there monopolies in US in insurance?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'privatisation of core government services is a crime'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'or cartels?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in our energy and water supply, yes, redryn, there is'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm referring to the healthcare insurance system'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i don't think an insurance company monopolizes that'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we don't have a healthcare insurance system'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i was drawing parallels to markets in the UK where they -have- introduced monopolies'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ok... i'm confused whether you're talking about uk or us now'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'government is supposed to prevent cartels, not encourage them'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'because i know nothing about uk'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'my alternative was a subsidised health plan from the government paid for by taxing the existing insurance plans, it would offer an utterly basic plan for the destitute'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not a replacement for the system, it's a bolt-on to fix the perceived problem of poor people without insurance'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'let me just clarify in case i don't understand the US system... the government mandates that everyone should buy a healthcare insurance'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'is that essentially what happens?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it is now, redryn'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ok'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and you're saying this causes monopolization?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when the government dictates who is allowed to give provision, yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i see, so the problem is there's some sort of licensing restrictions on who 'counts' as an insurance provider?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's among them'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not as bad as picking a champion to do your provision (such as the Uk does with running prisons etc)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm not familiar with it, are insurance companies having difficulties getting registered as one of the recognized insurers?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most have given up trying because of the negative effects it would have on their business'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as a result, there are precious few options open to many people on the exchanges'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is why so many people's insurance have gone rocketing up in price'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is why so many hospitals and doctors have pulled out'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'imo the implementation is bad, not the idea'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'in theory you could have a mandated insurance arrangement with healthy competition'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was too much at once, redryn, there were some good ideas in it, such as putting a floor in to insurance policies and making it so that they could be compared easily'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'right'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'bad implementation'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well mandating is something of an ideological issue, i don't agree with mandating people buy something'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'car insurance is mandatory in most countries'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'do you disagree with that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'you mandate people pay taxes, they're essentially required to buy an army'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i think mandatory car insurance makes a lot of sense'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'again it's a form of risk spreading'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it does, but not necessarily in the form we have it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not actually mandatory in the truest sense because you can opt not to drive'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yea i don't disagree the implementation is probably bad'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, the risk spreading doesn't occur - an 18yr old here with a $1000 car will pay $5000 a year insurance'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'isn't it 3rd party insurance that you're paying for?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'minimally'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the cost to insure a 1000 car must be low'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'couldn't be more than 1000'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're not insuring the $1000 car, you're insuring the person's car you hit'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'righ'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'right, so why do you say 3rd party is minimal'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and apparently, the reason UK insurance costs are so high is because of all the injury claims'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '3rd party cover is the most minimal amount of cover'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'oh'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn nods.
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if in the UK they banned medical claims or set a ceiling of say $10k on them, and also ensured the most expensive policy was no more than 20 times the lowest, it would help'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'instead we're getting bullshit like people suggesting all cars have black box recorders'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'unfortunately motor accidents can lead to costs of more than $10k'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'backdoor NSA shit'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hold that thought'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'If, in the UK, we have government provided free healthcare and disabled welfare, if you accept that the healthcare system are doing what they promise, then there should be no requirement for medical payouts on care insurance'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you disagree, it would necessarily imply that the healthcare and welfare systems are not working as promised to necessitate the payout'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'well that would depend on who you think should be paying for the cost of an accident'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'assuming everything is working fine'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'healthcare or motor insurance are both possible sources'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not all accidents have blame'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'however in car accidents, the blameworthy party would appear to be the one who caused the accident'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'does your insurance company have to pay if you're not to blame?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't know, what I do know is that your insurance premiums go up even if you are not to blame'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i guess that's because people don't contest claims?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just industry practice'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'interesting'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'probably got to do with risk'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's also law here that if you have an accident, even if you don't make a claim, you must inform your insurance company'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn nods.
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, redryn, which is why, despite there being no real sensible alternative, i don't like mandatory car insurance'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's corrupt as bollocks'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'problem is there is no alternative :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'costs have little to do with your actions'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'lots of things are the way they are because you can't think of something better'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you = anyone'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well there is, you could have government mandated insurance, or you could have a system of bonds'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or you could wild-west it and just say that the causes pays the damages'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'also in certain countries the government is owned by corporations'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'causer'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's most countries, redryn, US and UK included'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'nah can't do that, causer may often not be able to afford it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then causer pays out of their wages or goes to prison'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'might want to abolish bankruptcy act then'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'them going to prison costs the government money, still doesn't pay for the accident'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'long time ago bankrupts when to prison'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'went*'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'debtor prisons - recidivist step -- deport Tigernuts out of the UK asap'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you realise that prisons make corporations lots of money, lachdanan, they'd love it, why do you think USA had a 3 strikes rule and locked up millions of people for being black without due care and attention?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i suppose people would prefer having someone pay for the damage to their car rather than jail that someone'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it would also help if cars weren't now built in such a way that the merest knock causes them to be irrepairable'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a tangled web'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'indeed'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'which is why regulating anything is hella hard'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'it's always easy to be an armchair critic'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in car insurance, removing the health element altogether and doing something about the complexity of the court system so that legal costs were lower would help'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'like you said though, you need to assume healthcare is working first :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the alternative to being an armchair critic is to suck it up, and that's how things got this bad in the first place'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'because criticising it on aardwolf will prevent things from getting bad?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you have fairly free press, go write articles'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'talking about it at least disseminates ideas'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'aard has a much smaller readerbase'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'most of the time government policy arms do open consultations and everything'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'take part in those'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most of the ideas floated have already been expressed in think tanks, especially health and legal costs'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(here, at least)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the other reason is change is slow'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the amount of bureaucracy to change the law is huge'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and most of the time you need something to kick off law reforms'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'larger the monolithic governmental structure, slower it will be. This is why i dislike large centralised government'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yea'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is why i've always argued against state power being usurped by the feds'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'also political systems are semi-paralyzed or worse'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'need a dictator to get shit done!'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's only true if your democracy is sufficiently large and polarised as to end in stalemate'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if the obamacare had been pushed at a state level, it would probably have gone a lot smoother'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'except there's no way all states would agree on it'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't need to'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you get 2 or 3 large leftie states to be pioneers'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such as wisconsin, california and new york'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'test runs would have been a good idea, yea'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'at least they wouldn't have all the technical problems'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at Redryn.
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and if it goes well, it sells it to other states, and then those red states who didn't want it wouldn't have been forced'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all federal level wranglings would have been prevented'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn nods.
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't know why the feds don't use the state legislature system to their advantage in this way'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's what it's for'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'political probably'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the states are not homogenous, states are different, they have different needs and different agendas. If you try and blindly apply one doctorine to the whole country you are doomed to fail'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the founding fathers realised this'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the UK we don't have such a local governmental structure which is a shame, though the divide here is more along rurual vs city'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'think that's pretty much the same in the USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'explain to me. why card reading is nichtnicht in casino black jack table?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'card counting?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'card counting yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'you are not allowed to use your brain in casino?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'they reserve the right to refuse service lol'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'private game, if you are winning you get asked to learn..simple econmics'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'leave'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'heh:)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'its the most stupid thing..'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'here is how it works, if the card count is good, (most of the face cards are gone) then the player has an advantage over the house, so you dramatically up how much you are betting, if the table turns bad, you bet smaller amounts and thus by using this style you have an advantage over the house.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is because blackjack is not truly a random game and so understanding math and counting cards allow people to break the bank'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'watch the documentary holy rollers'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or what malkar said'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'the house will not let you have an advantage they would go out of business if they did.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tylertwo: 'I think most casinos use multiple decks etc so card counting wouldn't work nowadays'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'so. they keep the game but don't accept people who can play it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they should just reshuffle the cards after every hand'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'still works, you know when the count is high..its not 100%'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'it still works with multiple decks, Its just a little harder.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'some casinos you can play single deck games in the high roller room'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'yes.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'it works better if you have a group like the MIT blackjack team, because an advantage doesn't mean for sure you will win.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'but card counting isn't illegal :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i mean you wont go to jail or get your legs broken'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'but you will get pushed out of the casino and become a marked player in their system'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in some casinos it is malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'casinos can't make laws, (they can kick you out)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well native american tribes can make laws'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'still. you don't have any other device helping you buy your brain. how can that be illegal?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and also there is the whole contract law'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'your defintion of law is flawed.. if you arent useing any devices you wont go to jail'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'system and pattern betting may be a violation of a contract you agreed to in some casinos.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well breaking a contract isn't criminal, its a civil offense'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'kojiro, is that you?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'whats a criminal? really bad person?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: '40% of the us population'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no we have two bodies of law, criminal and civil'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'oh wait, different debate'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'civil=bad person criminal=a horrible person'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'who are the good people?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'saint=almost ok'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'jesus is a good people'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'lol fair enough'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'you know who else was a good person?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I'm a good person too. Promise.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'if you admit you are a bad person, then you get some points'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'i can vouche for elfeneri'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'they are good with your person'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'appraently Jesus disobeyed some of the the civil laws'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'beexcellenttoeachother.gif'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'human laws'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'he was the son of god, he has a different set of laws'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'like rich people'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'i like where this is going'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'jesus was forced to be good. because of his heritage. that doesn't really count then. '
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade dislikes rich parasitic abominations
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'plus recall'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'which college taught (is teaching) Emm to be a callous capitalist'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who says I am a callous capitalist?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(Emm reeks of callous wannabe capitalist)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am pro carbon tax, I think that alone gets me kicked out of the capitalist club'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'jokes on you, i'm made of carbon'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes and your carbon emissions stink.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'which college Emm, (hopefully not an ivy league)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Emm not if you worked for a wind turbine company then being pro-carbon would be very callous capitalist :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'meant pro-carbon tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'geez. this was complicated. cant understand a word. off'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I worked for a public utility for a year as a legal intern'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'callous'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they really didn't like wind farms'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'we have wind farms around here.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we have a few around here'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'hey. another topic: "all you pricks windfarms in the coasts of the Baltic sea make my winters suck!"'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well not around here exactly, but a hundred miles north or so'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'hasn't really affected property values like everyone was concerned about.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) [Outlaw] Drakoth: 'me, where you'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so hwuaijijal?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: '4 months of constant rain. '
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'no snow. '
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and this is caused by wind turbines?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): .... Hwuaijijal is agreeing with that Emm person again...
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'explain how windfarms cause constant rain'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'let me think..'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am fairly sure we cannot directly link any weather or weather pattern to wind turbines as of yet.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'the turbines stop the natural green airflow. so if there is a rainy weather, it cant go anywhere.. just stays at that place. '
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'one of the first large wind turbines was in Boone, NC.  It had the blades behind the pole (easier to point it like a weather vane)  The design didn't work because the the "thump" form the blade going into the air behind the support pole.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have heard people babbling about wind turbines reducing wind speeds but the number of turbines it would take to make an apperciable difference would be astronomical.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: '"i should be paid for power i create even if there is no demand for it when it is made and no way to store it"'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"windfarms cause constant rain" is almost as ridiculous as the (retarded deceitful conniving) politician that said "windfarms cause cities to be hotter because windfarms slow the air movement cooling cities" (paraphrased)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'zade, im one of your ignorant comment away from ignoring you.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think that could happen zade, if say you completely surrounded the city with windfarms as tightly packed as they could possibly be'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'yea i doubt they effect weather much, but i have heard about how constant noise and giant moving shadows can mess with people when its constant and never ends lol'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course it would be horribly inefficient to do so since they wouldn't get good generation that way'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tylertwo: 'khaim, kind of like how terrible polluted air from coal plants can mess with people?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I probably wouldn't want one within 200 yards of my house.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'the thing is that noone knows what is the limit'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tylertwo: 'terribly'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as to the noise and light issues I think that is almost entirely psychosomatic.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'nobody cares really'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and at least around here they are typically in the middle of farmlands, so its only going to bother the crows and the corn.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'here they are on hills in the woods.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I could see there being problems with people placing them in like residential areas, but that isn't generally where they are placed'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'mhmh. you build some farms in africa. years later the cheetah go blind for some reason'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I can't argue with that.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'although I would definitely prefer to live in the middle of a wind farm than in the next door to a petrochemical plant or coal plant'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Khaim: 'populations have a history of putting up with horrid conditions for decades, i guess back in the day in NYC the horse manure piled up to three stories high'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'personally I want to see space based solar power developed, but that is really a future tech'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'when the waste collectors go on strike in New York, the garbage piles up 3 stories high :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'make clothes lines legal!!!  It will cut down on the amount of power we need!!!'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'when there is minimal wind, the wind drifts above the wind farms. when there is heavy humidity and minimal wind, the windwarms and any buidlings, trees, telephone posts, high-towers may seem to slow air flow (at ground level) -- but that is something likely to be believed and said by the science-illiterates and maybe liars (seeking to discredit windfarms)  (perhaps the "luddites" may set up a science experiment to prove or disprove the "theory")'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'are you a physicist, Zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am an environmental scientist.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'emm=zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I have completed substaintially all o the requirements for a master's of science in environmental science with an energy concentration.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'emm =\= zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'emm=malkar)zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'emm=malkar=zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'anybody that "ignores me" loses -- "so make my day, punk" -- (remain ignorant and suffer grievously)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I agree with him insofar as he asserts that the idea of windfarms deployed on any usable scale have any measurable effect on weather patterns'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): .... Hwuaijijal throws back his head and cackles with insane glee!
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I ignored zade for awhile'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'he can be a firebrand at times, but his heart is in the right place.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Someone who thinks windfarms slow the wind and that is bad, must hate trees'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and buildings'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and cell towers'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and of course mountains!'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I'm in a building right now and let me tell you they do cut down on wind :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'say that from the rooftop'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'you agree? hey, wheres the imms? 3 persons agree in the debate channel. must be a multiplay'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'really there is too much altitude inequality in the world we should level all the maountain ranges and fill in lowland areas'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '(/sarcasm)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade and I disagree about a lot of things, if we are agreeing there is probably a good reason'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'like it is one of those things that are really not debatable.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'i think both you and zade are aliens and try to destroy our world but cant do it directly because our nukes are too strong for you so you choose to convince us to build more windfarms'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i think the odds of aliens being interested enough in us to come all this way to destroy us are pretty damn small.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'assuming you came all this way, we don't know where you are mudding from.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'aliens among us. new topic? who wants to be an alien this time?'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well lightspeed delay would limit me to the immidiate vicinity i would thin'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'unless I had FTL capabilities, but then I wouldn't be worried about your pesky nukes.'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since I could just send a rock in at FTL speeds and atomize the planet'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'sure, if you ignore the fact that FTL object move from the terminus to the origin and not the other way around :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'im not sure that is actually true, but it wouldn't change anything I would just need to make sure earth was in the path of the object either way'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it doesn't list dual wield or second attac etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'it lists dual wield for me'
T3/r7/2013-12-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in retrospect, there is the conjecture that forests do seem to prevent dustbowls and hurricanes and tornadoes, so maybe windfarms are good, (although dustbowls are likely to damage windfarms with dust and grit) '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why would forests preventing dustbowls mean windfarms are good? we need more forests, not more windfarms'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/28/us-usa-obama-protests-idUSBRE9BR09Q20131228?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=574655'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'France votes in new income tax tier of 75%'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Thats a bit high.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not high enough for some'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how high is too high?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally believe no state should be taking more than a third of a person's total income from all sources, not including sales taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats rather arbitrary'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate personally I believe that all income tax is immoral.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course it's arbitrary'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could argue all tax is immoral'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, given the need to fund some basic things necessary for a functional society, what proportion is the the highest that should be drawn from an individual and why?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't argue that all tax is immoral though. I think some taxes are good.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for example taxes on externalities'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'externalities?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'death taxes and societal taxes are immoral'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'when costs are imposed on third parties that did not bargain for them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a handwavey term used to justify unfairly taxing things to fit an agenda, Majic, basically'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think estate taxes are neither moral or immoral, but I don't think they work very well'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I was wondering what emm was talking about'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not at all tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'an externality is when costs (or benefits) are imposed on third parties'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'this is widely accepted economic definition'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'economics isn't a science'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'externalities (in general) does not mean the crap that Emm is attempting to cloak with specific buzzword overloading'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course economics is a science, an applied one at that.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am using the generally accepted definition zade.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'll try and be fair here, externality is a valid economic term, but it's a term which can be, and often is deliberately applied so widely as to be used as a political tool'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'using punitive taxes to enact social change is immoral'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'using tax to genuinely reflect the cost of something is not'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'does that help?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't know what the first assertion means exactly tigernuts, but I agree with the second.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ok, well i can give you two examples of where the second is applied in the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'first, gas tax - tax of car fuel. I would agree with fuel duty and use the money to pay for roads and public transport infrastructure'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats not really an externality though tigernuts, not to say there isn't an externality from burning fuel'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, in the UK, the revenue from fuel duty is more than double the entire budget for the department of transport - it's being used as a punitive tax on a captured market justified by bogus green agenda'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the road usage is a common goods issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '2nd, duty of cigarettes - i agree duty should be paid on them to cover the additional costs to the health service that smoking causes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in reality, the revenue is now more than 3 times the worst case estimates for the cost of lung cancer to the nHS'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'cost of burning fuel is irrelevent to the fuel duty'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'now THAT is an externality, although some would argue that is only true because we have mandatory universal health coverage (at least for emergencies and in UK for other stuff too)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'even the mis-explanation addendum ("that did not bargain for them") (by Emm) sounds pretentious-obfuscating gooblededook (used by expletives to supposedly justify injustices in the name of economics and politics)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'an externality is really a very simple concept, if your action causes harm to others (or their property) and they haven't agreed to it before hand, you have created a negative externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'correct, but it's not something that not calculable, and isn't even helpful in many respets'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the fact that people exist and live in my country is an externality that is costing ME money'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'in general, then, I'd agree with it conceptually, but argue that calculating it is quite difficult in most cases.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i cannot tax people having kids, nor would i seek to'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how does someone having a kid impose costs on other people?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade looked up the concise dictionary definition of externalities (not anything in there about the crap Emm is attempting)
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'easily, other people increase population, put upward pressure on resource prices and pollute my environment'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people having kids is no different in terms of polluting externalities to people burning fossil fuels'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps worse so in the long term'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '1) price effects due to competion is not an externality tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it's not, then there's something fundamentally broken with your model'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '2) pollution is the classic externality, but the existence of the people isn't the externality its their actions that are causing externalities.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you have the exclusive right to use all resources in the world tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'my right is as exclusive as yours. do you have the exclusive right to tax someone based on their externalities?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i would argue that the rights of the people that are already born are more important than the rights of those yet conceived, just as it is the responsibility of those already born to protect and improve humankind for those not yet conceived'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't have any right to tax someone based on anything since I am a private citizen'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given population is the prime cause of global warming, you cannot claim that having kids isn't an externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are insane tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, i'm just not living in a box bounded by your subject'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the phrase "taxes on externalities" is an incomprehensible near-nonsense (that does not convey meaning) and an attempt to obfuscate to anybody not in an insider (say) economics-den-of-vipers'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no body and no institution has the right to arbitrarily tax another without representation'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in that case tigernuts you should not have any problem with any of the taxes in the US or the UK since they both have universal representation'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm all for citizens having a contract with the government that represents them'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'tax on externlities is not incomprehensible, it is very simple.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm nods at Malkar.
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i pay taxes, emm, doesn't mean i think them moral, sensible, or necessary'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't actively seek to avoid them either'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such things are for corporations and bankers'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I do, to the greatest extent legally possible'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'if you try to apply it to things like taxing having children or taxing breathing (I think that creates greenhouse gasses) then people get very uncomfortable.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well the UK is run considerably more efficiently than the USA, you have little opportunity to tax dodge here unless you are a business'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you are employed here, tax is taken at source before it even hits your bank account'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'malkar there is no net production of CO2 by human (or animal) exhaling'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but with externalities, where do you stop? What do you include, what do you exclude? How do you price the ephemerial?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since by definition they have to have uptaked that carbon from somewhere'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we should be replanting forests everywhere sensible'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'there is no net greenhouse gasses from cars, they have to uptake that carbon from somewhere.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'those are all important questions tigernuts, and people have done a lot of work attempting to answer them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they're not questions that have a scientific answer'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they are subject to ideology which makes the whole thing very unsound'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no malkar the difference is that the car is using carbon that was already in long term sequestration'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the cardinal rule of all things government is keep it simple, keep it small'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I still think my eatingg the food would make it not available for sequestration.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: '"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the difference malkar is that your food has to take carbon out of the cycle to grow'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so the more you eat the more carbon is extracted from the cycle'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it'll never be made simple and efficient, and it'll never work because it is not in the interests of the establishment and their financiers to have such'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'but a forest instead of a wheatfield would continue to sequester carbon as it gradually got buried.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that may be true, and then the farming is creating an externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is someting that we can measure pretty easily though'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if farming is creating an externality then it is people having excess population that driving the requirement for those crops'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but simply having a need doesn't create the externality tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we absolutely can farm in carbon neutral ways'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'whether we can for the number of people we have remains to be seen, but thats another debate.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the economists "explanation" of "externalities" seems to be a screed (a small book or large chapter) - with possible disagreements as to what is "external" or "internal"  '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you cannot farm sustainably with the number of people on the planet and maintain current living standards'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you either have to suppress living standards and hope technology catches up, or you allow population to increase and rape the planet, or, you allow population to increase and living standards to collapse and people starve/make war, or you do something about it'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't know if that is really true or not tigernuts, but that still doesn't make the people the externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not people, extra people'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'growth of population'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'a container is external, the price of petrol before being purchased is external, the view outside the window of a home is external  '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but the population of the UK and the US isn't growing'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'population of the UK is growing'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade you are babbling nonesense please stop being a troll'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'is it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'population of the USA will grow if they continue to allow mexicans'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'heavily taxing new people would help with global warming (not that I am advocating it)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'up 12 million (20%) in my lifetime'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how much of that is from immigration?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a significant portion'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the rest from increased longetivity'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, the population rise of the planet isn't caused by martians'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'expand the goodlededook:  "taxes on incomensurables"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"taxes on the incongruous"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade do you believe in property rights?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't have a solution for you. You could harness the power of celebrity to make having more than 2 kids untrendy, and make adoption trendy and liberal. You could cut off all child-related benefits at 2 kids and/or charge higher rates of tax to those with more than 2 kids'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't like the idea of penalising people for having more than 2 kids so much as rewarding people for having fewer'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'same differance.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts gasps as he realizes what Malkar did.
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so isn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there has to be property rights, else i might as well grab a shotgun and go rob people'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'ok we are going to give a tax break for all non-smokers rather than punish smokers.  I don't see a differance.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'to play the game of economic goodlededook, find an obscure dictionay word, and prefic "taxes on" to the word, the produce an economics book (for students to purchase - required reading!) detailing what is specifically meant be the phrase in the economics context.  Then when speaking in non-economic debate channels, obfuscate the debate with use of the phrase '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well i wouldn't punish smokers, i wouldn't tax them any further than the direct cost on our health service of their smoke'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'taxes aren't supposed to be for social engineering'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'okay looks like it is time to ignore zade again'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'says who tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade prefers to euthanize chronic smokers
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the population agrees to it then it is part of the social contract yes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you might as well say that you only have freedom of speech because of a social contract'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'zade, all feilds of study have terms that seem obscure to those not familiar with them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's simply not true'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'where does it come from then?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unalenable rights'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does that mean?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we might have codified those rights in law, but they already existed'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'from god?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you're religious you could argue they come from god'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the population in North Korea "agrees" to what the leaders say is the law - (perhaps an example of the Emm version of "social contract law")'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is essentially shutting down the argument though'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you have to have a baseline somewhere'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at some point there will be things that are axiomatic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unalenable rights are those axioms'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who decides what they are?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'right to life, property, and freedoms of speech are those'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'combined weight of human wisdom over time, i guess'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'inalienable rights that is?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't change because people vote against them'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you try to neuter them, you will have bloodshed'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not sure why you put freedom of speech in there, the usual list is life liberty and property or life liberty and "pursuit of happiness"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'very few countries actually have freedom of speech'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd phrase it more of freedom of thought, but it encompasses freedom of speech, thought, religion, expression'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because most countries are shit'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and even in countries that do, it is limited in many ways (commericial speech is usually not protected for example)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you shouldn't use examples of countries that trample freedoms as justification for not having them'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I don't think she did that'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Harperon: 'so laws against fraud violate freedom of speech?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"unalienable" seems more powerful than "inalienable"  -- bewary of those that attempt to "alienate 'rights'" through use of weaker words'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'personally I think calling some rights unalienable or inalienable is an abridgment of those very rights.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anti-fraud laws are toothless, but that's another matter'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'true rights are ones you can sell if you choose to.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's when they are forcibly taken you're in trouble'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if I want to sell someone the right to kill me I should be able to.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the moment you tell me I can't you have infringed my right to life.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I can't really support that idea, if you don't do well economically you can sell yourself into slavery?  taken too far bad things can happen in society'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'not right to life right to death, plus I don't think that other person you kills you is good for society.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why most of us live in a de facto state of psuedo-slavery anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'on the grounds that you can't dictate what laws others are subject to, i don't think you could use that as an argument'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'that is very much not true, although until this gq ends I'm going to let it slide'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'electing someone to end your life via legal euthenasia?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'according to Emm faulty logic, the constitution of the USA is an abridgement of the rights of USAmericans, as per: "calling some rights constitutional or unalienable or inalienable (or calling them anything) is an abridgment of those very rights."'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that might pass muster, but not murder - murder has a specific meaning'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade quit trying to put words into my mouth I never said anything about constitutional'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think, zade, Emm is trying to argue by negation, but it doesn't really work with rights'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want to give up your rights, give them up, but don't go giving up other people's for them'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's kinda the point of them'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm, cease and desist from verbal diarrhoea'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'take your own advice zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bringing it round to the start, what proportion of someones income do you consider the most that governments should be stealing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '0%'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm is attempting to spout crap (almost as bad as a literate Nercoshine)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so you believe in anarchy!'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we had more than 100 years in the US with no income tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and we didn't have anarcy'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you also had a very small government'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'would you prefer to return to that scenario?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so once again you are arguing false dichotomy'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you reference a time in history, i pointed out the context'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well I do think that the government, especially the federal one is much to large'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and it doesn't have adequate redness or hammers and sickles for Zade's liking'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the false dichotomy was income tax or anarcy tiernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'granted, but looking at where you are now, do you think the sheep public will react kindly to having their huge government support engine being removed? I'm not sure even if would be possible to unpick without a schism, neither in the USA or here in the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'big government is a parasite, it infects the host and makes it dependant on it while it sucks you dry'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'transitions are important, granted.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'another near-nonsense phrase when bandied without anchoring specification: "a false dichotomy" '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no zade it also has a precise meaning and I was using it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'go grab your bullshit to english dictionary, zade, you often need it for me'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'TN said that because I don't believe income tax is moral, I want anarcy, I pointed out that those are not the only two choices'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is exactly a false dichotomy.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i accepted it'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and I think TN acknoweledge it'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm (chicken-little) comes running screaming "the sky is falling, er, a false dichotomy, er, the false dichotomy is falling, er .."'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade quit trolling'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'chicken-little is awesome, though'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'back to the subject at hand, tigernuts, I prefer taxes that are either based on the harms that we are trying to correct, or the value of the thing we are trying to protect.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and really I don't think government as much moral use besides those two things.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'being the pragmatist, i don't think it's possible to have taxation based solely on those things'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is the whole question of equality, but thats a much more difficult question'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'maybe not starting from where we are without some serious work.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the question is why do we want governments, what do we want them to do, and what is the most efficient way for that to happen.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those are old questions with well defined answers that only the most rabid of fake liberal authoritarian types and corporatists would try and change'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so what do we want governments to do?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'why? see question 2. what? exactaly what they are doing. Is this the most efficent way possible? I hope not.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what is their legitimate purpose?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to defend the country from outside aggression, to mediate disputes between people through means of common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'secondarily, to provide services for the public benefit that cannot be provided individually and whose scope is agreed upon by the masses'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'TN very few countries have common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'very well put TN'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'every country has common law, UK and US are founded on common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'most countries are civil law not common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most civil law is derived from common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the services aspect is optional to a government, the first parts were essential'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't want to get into law now, it's murky and pointless'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'really only UK and its decendents ever had common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and very little of it is left in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so UK and half the globe that made up it's empire :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'very little is left here too, and that's not a good thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'being under maritime law is the source of most of the corruption that has ruined us all'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does maritime law have to do with anything?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the argument? nothing, merely history'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the distinction is between common and civil, (judge made law, and stautory law essentially)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'both have their pitfalls, but not relevent to the topic at hand'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and I am not sure why we need to make the distinction honestly'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are the one who brought up common law'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Emm, you brought up the distinction.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so lets get back to your list'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'was in reference to what government provided, a means of arbitrating disputes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in that context, statute does not arbitrate disputes, it's merely a tool used in that arbitration'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we need national defense, courts, and public works that cannot or are not adequately provided by private actors?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just trying to see if I understand your position'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd largely agree, though would put the public works in brackets'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'distinguish between essential and optional'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'w'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'government arbitrates the interface between people'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's their primary role'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'you said as agreed upon by the citizens (or something like that) that covers it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the Emm use of the phrase "a false dichotomy" is seeming bad-english near-nonsense as used above --  if Tigernut was separating "moral taxes" and "anarchy" into mutually exclusive classes, that is a "crook or corrupt or defective dichotomy", not a "false dichotomy" (the use of the "false" is too polite)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'service provision is not an essential role of government, it's just often convenient. I group of civic minded volunteers could do the same'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade you are being a troll please stop'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"false" seems to nullify the "dichotomy" -- but there is a "crook dichotomy" there, (defective, crook, corrupt but not false)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'according to some libertarian scholars all "public works" could be better done by private actors'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in a purely practical sense, in modern times with the corruption endemic, i agree'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade quit trying to redefine language to suit your misconceptions'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'though not evitable at an ideological level'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'then get ACTRA onto public works - get the popcorn out, and watch the disasters that follow(s)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ideology should inform opinion, not dictate it'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'the question seems to be how far should government go, most people in the US agree that the food stamps program that feeds the poor is neccessary, although I'm sure many disagree.  Then we start asking how much should it provide, what requirements should we make of those accepting aid.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'those are the wrong questions to be asking, Malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I agree with TN'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'Democrats are trying to expand the program, Republicans are trying to cut it back.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '"Why is it necessary"? is more pertinent. IN the UK, the majority of the working population is on some form of welfare'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'how is it the wrong question?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'public works by private actresses -- ah, the ladies of the night  (genuine ladies born with the xx chromosome, not the perverts)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'why is it neccessary? to prevent people from starving.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'too literal, Malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and i would disagree with that, too'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'why is it the wrong question?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'especially here in the UK'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because "Why is it necessary" undercuts both partisan questions'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'undercuts what question?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you know I read an interesting study recently that might have some relevence here'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if a majority requires welfare, you should be asking what has caused such a large anomoly in finance that would require such'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the UK example I can give you a concrete answer'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's probably similar in the U S'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Here, as a result of de-industrialisation, of farming all of the manufacturing to China we had 20 years of cheap CHinese goods. Now the money is running out wages are being suppressed as prices rise. The net result is that working for a living doesn't pay the living costs, hence everyone is on welfare'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so the question is not "is welfare levels high enough"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the question should be "how do we make it such that our economy pays wages that allow people to sustain themselves"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Herr Malkar is not a National Socialist, but is as callous. a final solution to the poor is required, but unsure whether "not feeding the poor" is the answer.  (Zade says "perhaps Better is a final solution to the callous greedy rich")'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'and while you figure that out people can starve.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you fail to ask that question, then no matter what, you'll have pissed off masses that are paying the taxes for other people to be "spongers"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in studying the effects of public pensions in developing countries researchers have discovered that transfer payments tend to increase the wages that working elderly get paid'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'an emotive statement, Malkar, but the truth of the matter is that welfare payments are high enough to maintain a standard of living, not to prevent starvation'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'well then include welfare with foodstamps.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i'd like to see welfare increased, but tied to previous income'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as a safety net, not a way of life'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'foodstamps are welfare, malkar'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I would argree only as a safety net. (not quite working that way right now in the US)  Still it is one of the functions that most people would agree the government should do, yet we have to decide the extent to which we do that.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well clearly if you agree as a safety net, then you must also agree that the current system is not that'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I am pretty sure they are a seperate program in the US, but that isn't relevant.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'yes the current system has many problems.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not sure that most would agree that foodstamps is necessary, but even if they do that doesn't realy mean that it is the best way to do what you are aiming for'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are numerous different welfare programs in the UK, they're still all welfare'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for the UK system, I would actually be in favour of increasing the minimum wage'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'may Tigernuts be forced to subsist on "welfare payments" (no extras and no duplicates) -- to find out whether "welfare payments are high enough to maintain a standard of living", (perhaps freezing and starving to death is a "standard of living" until death comes visiting)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but counter to that, i'm also in favour of scrapping employment taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not just have a BLS?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'already done so, Zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'BLS?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'acronyms don't translate well, Emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'basic living stipend'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'standard communist/socialist instrument'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'considered the idea, but not practical'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'communist idea everyone makes the same amount, no one on this channel has suggested that.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that isn't actually inherent to communism'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but i digress'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just at a practical level, minimum needed to "live" here would cost 16 times the entire current tax take'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'from each according to ability, to each according to need?  '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'a BLS is essentially a payment from the government that everyone gets and it covers the "basic needs"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'even giving every adult a universal benefit of $100 a week would cost more than the entire tax take'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'typically food/shelter/clotes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sure but you can just increase taxes right?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its not as if doing this might cause people to earn less'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'raising taxes has diminishing returns'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and giving poor people welfare can reduce incentives to work.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd stick BLS into a category of "would be nice, but not a priority". It requires considerable modification of other things to be practical at -any- level and quickly becomes impractical for all kinds of reasons as it increases'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd replace "can" with "often"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'some would argue always'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'thus this channel'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'BLS seems to have the problem of it being a way of life not a safety net.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's often been joked here in the UK that careers advice to academically sub-par 16yr old girls is "get pregnant"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we are going to solve the worlds problems on Aardwolfs debate'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so why do we need a safety net?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there was a lengthy media debate during our last elections of a single mother of 3 who was whinging about how hard up she was, but when tallied up, for a working single man to have the same standard of living as her, he'd need to earn $40k a year'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'so people don't starve, freeze to death, become homeless.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're more likely to starve or freeze to death as a pensioner or as a low paid worker than you are on welfare'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so the real issues are food/shelter/utilities, or the income inequalities inherent in our system?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'right welfare is to prevent you from freezing to death.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'supposed to be, malkar, but it's not what it actually is'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'both, there is a fundamental issue in the UK around the cost of housing, which is frustrated by a population density that is unsustainable'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'numlock?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'The income inequalities do cause problems, but the main problem is people living in terrible conditons.  (I would like to do more about income inequality, but it is very difficult in a capitalist system)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not really just have meaningful progressive taxation and redistrubution'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'starting in the late 19th century, and accelerated after ww1 and ww2 there were huge "public housing" projects to build state-owned housing that was then rented out to workers on long contracts at very low rates. In the 1970s (after years of non-investment) they changed the rules so that priority was given to "at risk" groups, single mothers, homeless. As a result, most public housing estates became ghettos. In the 1980s, Margaret thatcher opted to allow public housing tenants buy their homes at a knockdown rate. Councils were prevented from reinvesting the money in more housing. Net result was the housing got bought up by buy-to-let investors and housing corporations. Scroll on to now, very little housing is owned by the government, social housing is run by companies, some for profit, some not. Net result is very high property prices and very high rental prices'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Vost rests in a corner and mutters 'spam' quietly to himself.
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'We can do that Emm, but I wouldn't want to go too far.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'xrt seven'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'extremely tight planning laws partly as a result of the green agenda, partly as a result of "not in my back yard" agenda dating back to ownership of estates by the gentry means that land is extremely expensive here'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '1/4 acre plot near me without a bungalow (prefab, not habitable, needed pulling down) sold for $250k'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you won't get a 2 bed flat in London with much change from $1,000,000 these days'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '1/4 acre is huge'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '1/4 acre in a city might be huge, but this is rural'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you need more cities'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and no, 1/4 acre is not huge, 1/4 acre would have been considered "typical small family home" plot'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and less rural'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're talking rabbit hutches and people-factories. Some people get on with living in cities, many do not. I am among those who would probably go postal and wipe people out if forced to live in a city'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'my house was on 1/8th an acre I had a nice sized back yard and a 2700 square foot livable space, plenty for family of 4'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course the housing crisis caused it to lose 80% of its value and the bank forclosed'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so meh'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '1/8 acre pretty much guarantees you no garden and crammed in ontop of neighbours'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'oddly because of the state laws they were not allowed to pursue me for the debt'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what debt? they took the house'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the people who lived there before us had a nice garden, but we didn't want one'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anyway, that was a potted history of how we had decent social housing here that kept the housing market real, and why our housing now is out of control'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the difference between the value at forclosure and the mortgage'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well i don't understand that, emm, here a mortgage is essentially a loan secured on the property. They can't persue you for more than the property'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since that's kinda the point of it'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and then last month they settled a class action lawsuit for improper foreclosure proceedures and sent me a check for 300 bucks'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that isn't true in most states in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but it is in the state I was in apparently'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd imagine it's dependant on your mortgage. Personally I wouldn't take one out that wasn't so'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'like i wouldn't take out a mortage right now that wasn't fixed rate for lige'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'life*'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'without laws preventing it, they appear to be the norm'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the fact that housing sales are up here is indicitive that people are on the most part, INSANE'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people perishing for the lack of knowledge'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '(mortgages that require you to pay them off less foreclosure sale proceeds in the event of a foreclosure'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so should the government fund basic science research?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the solution here would be to ban buy-to-let mortgages for a fixed period, heavily tax second-home purchases, and invest in some publically owned housing to offer out to people at reduced cost to put downward pressure on the housing market'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'a better question would be why should the governtment not fund more productive projects'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that seems pretty interventionist tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why should they not? they probably should. Why don't they? because it's not in their interests, Elchanan'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it does, Emm, but it's only interventionist because the market has already failed'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how has the market failed?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and it's the polar opposite of the 'intevervention' that they're currently trying, which is having the opposite effect'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it sounds to me like the government failed not the market'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'When all of the resources are held to ransom, that's a market failure'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how are the resources being held to ransom?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'housing corporations owning all the housing stock'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or sufficiently large percentage of the housing stock as to seriously affect it's affordability'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was a failure of government, i already gave you the backstory'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but if you like, this is market-based correction'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'im confused housing companies own housing'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why is this a bad thing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because there is a limited amount of housing'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so open up more areas to housing?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they won't do that'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zoning is the problem?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i mean housing companies presumably rent yes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'zoning, green lobby, nimby lobby, and the fact that all of the land is likewise owned'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if they could make more money by selling they would sell?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't see a market failure there'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well they can't'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's an investment class'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oddly, people can't not have somewhere to live, so it's a captive market'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'actually people can, its called homelessness'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the ordinary law of markets only applies in this context to products that people have a choice over buying'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't you think an intervention would be preferable to mass homelessness?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given that it's already been widely accepted that part of the purpose of government is to provide that safety net?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'maybe but so far it sounds like the interventions is what have caused the problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and fixing it by more intervention seems probelmatic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nah, the intervention that caused the problem wasn't one to fix a perceive problem so much as a bribe for votes'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'corruption, if you will'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well then the potentially homeless people should organize and vote the bastards out'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you should realise by now that governments act to preserve their own dominance. No amount of voting them out will help'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and thus you reach the limits of the usefulness of democracy'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which brings us back to the idea of small, local governance'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(non sequitur)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not really a fan of democracy, its just I don't have anything better to replace it with'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm a fan of democracy, provided it's small enough to be representative and responsive, and provided there is recognition of unalenable rights (such as in the constitution/bill of rights)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you let your democracy get big enough, you might as well be living in a dictatorship'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the problem is that power will capture your government regardless of the form'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if you make it hard to corrup the ideals from which you started (e.g. the US constitution/Bill of Rights) you also inherently make it hard to fix the corruption once it takes place.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the people must ever be vigilante to protect against that. The trouble with the USA is that people have not been, and thus the establishment have captured it and fortified themselves in'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its not a matter of vigilence, it is inherent in the system'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i dunno, you might still be able to fix it without violence'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'with or without knowing what is in a constitution, adoring a constitution is foolishness -- the "bill of rights" may be a "bill of no rights"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i suggest you find out what's in it then, zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the people with the power to influence election outcomes (whether thats corporations with money, or media elite, or banks, or whatever) will slowly (or quickly) erode any protections that don't serve them'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts seems to be into "Constitionolatry"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'should never underestimate their importance, zade. Many ills of the USA right now come about because people have sloppily allowed government to act other than in accordance with the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you say that as if there weren't a large group of people (probably a majority even) that wanted exactly that tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if nothing else, it serves as a measuring stick against which governance can be held up against. Speaking from someone living in a country without a codified constitution, it's considerably easier for our government to "get away with shit"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'except the don't, Emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'everyone may disagree about specifics but everyone seems to like the idea of government orderin other people around'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at the last election you (collective you) voted in a party whose entire manifesto was one big long smelly shit ontop of the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the SCOTUS is likey to disagree (and disregard Tigernuts), as the SCOTUS interprets and rules what is "constitutional" or not  '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which party was that tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'SCOTUS is not the soul decider, Zade, and neither are they always correct'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Democrips'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats not a real word tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the USA corruptly redefined what some words mean (torture) '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Democrips and Rebloodlicans?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'my choice is between people who want to tax and spend me to death, and those who want to just spend me to death?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'neither party seems better than the other to me really'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'flip sides of the same coin'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but at least the dems don't want to rape me again if I get pregnant from getting raped.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Cheney corruptly redefined what the duties of the Executive office and and other office he was in -- (to avoid testifying)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the point made was still valid, however, regardless of which of the two get in - they'll get in. You'll never have a third-party elected, the system has been built to prevent it and the tactics to suck the people into the tribalism was sufficiently effective'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'same is true here in the U K'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and that is all inherent in the very constitution you tout as being the solution to the problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the US is forced to be a two party system by the nature of the voting setup in the constitution'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the protections that have been put in place by the current parties may be extraconstitutional'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but the form of a two party system is inherent'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as that might be, but given the limited scope that was given to the federal government, it shouldn't ever have been a big issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is because we have a winner take all election system that we are forced to have two parties'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'therein lies the problem, you gave it too much power'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but that power was all given with the consent of the people'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and whenever it fails to achieve, because it inetivably will because it's too big, the solution the scmucks come up with is: give it MORE power'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's the failing of democracy, people are dumb'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again, I am not a big fan of democracy, but I haven't seen any better system yet.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only solution therefore is the hope that China nukes yo u'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'isent that like the pot calling the kettle black'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no racism please, Elchanan'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I didn't understand his comment, but I didn't think it was racist..'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'calling people dumb like ....'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it wasn't racist (unless you're a libtard) but it was both flippant and intellectually lazy '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so are you trying to tell us, after all that's going on that Joe Public, on the whole, aren't dumb?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Emm is female -- that explains some of the above Emm (defective) "logic" (was "female" defective logic, not male "defective logic") -- Zade readjusts the filters slightly - yep, the above is not as incomprehensible as before -- (the more accurate the profile, the more comprehensive the retranslation of the prior gibberish is)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't see what gender has to do with logic zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't think Emm's been drinking tonight, and as a result has been largely understandable and logical, Zade'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what -have- you brought to debate tonight, Zade?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'comedy'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'comedy like "Friends" comedy, then'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I never liked that show'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'males are harder on illogical males than on illogical females, so females tend to be more "illogical" (males were too polite to slam them)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(males were too polite to slam them into proper logic)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that hasn't been my experience, and it sounds sort of chauvanistic to me'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'did you notice how hard Zade was slamming Emm in the prior dialogue'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you were mostly babbling incomprehensible nonsense'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'debate equivalent to a grammar nazi'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some females are unable to comprehend male logic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again logic isn't gendered, it is uniform'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'perhaps by logic you mean something else'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the SCOTUS are extreme "grammat nazis"'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'gender will alter ideology, perception, values etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats true TN'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I don't see how it alters logic.'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'might alter the process by moving the starting points and rules upon which your logical processes are made'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't make the logic wrong, just means you might end up at a different conclusion'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '"if A, then B; A; therfore B" is the same whether it is male or female uttering it'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'too simplistic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if A then probably B'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but thats one of the foundation principles of logic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that isn't logic redryn'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats argumentation and support'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'actually, it is logic, fuzzy logic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some males do not debate with illogical females.  they simply disregard and push out illogical females'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'A is B'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so zade is a sexist?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not sexist, just a lunatic'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade despised the "redhead" on the tvshows starring "Lucille Ball" -- the redhead used an annoying form of "female logic" -- they persist in showing reruns so as to insult the ethnic group from which Lucilla Ball came 
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so were the "Lucy" shows insulting the Irish or the Russians -- likely both'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'zade do you understand what comedy is?'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"comedy" is also the process where jews and other minorities may insult and disparage larger nonminorities'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the tvshow starring "Ray Romano" (a jew playing an italian Raymond Barone in a disfunctional italian family) was a vehicle to insult and disparage the italians (and roman catholics?) (popular show strangely)'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"All in the FAmily" was a classic -- the deliberate intent was to insult those represented by Archie Bunker, but the show became popular'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'majorities usually do not mind if they are insulted  (but the minorities scream when seemingly disparaged) '
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'qps get easier to earn as you tier you get +1 per quest per tier'
T3/r7/2013-12-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'oops'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Wall Street Tycoon RObert W Wilson (87) gave away his entire fortune before committing suicide by throwing himself out of his 16th floor San Remo apartment. His last $100mil he gave away to the Environmental Defense Fund, thus proving even in the act of philanphropy and death, wall street bankers can further their "dominate the known universe" mentality'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'to be fair, EDF isn't the worst offenders i've seen, but they still employ a "don't rattle the corporatists" mentality of ignoring the elephants int he room'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so 17 people died in Volgograd after a suicide bombing by Chechen terrorists funded and directed by the Saudi Arabian government'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'meantime, 1.3m americans will lose their long-erm unemployment benefit from jan 1st'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://newsbusters.org/blogs/pj-gladnick/2013/12/28/msm-glosses-over-irony-global-warming-scientists-trapped-antarctic-ice#ixzz2ovITxKYv'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'environmental protestors in Oklahoma City were arrested for bio-terrorism threats because some of their protest banners contained glitter'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rofl, Nazi looted art found in German parliament building. Woops'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'use the debate for depressing discussions'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'dis is politics i cnat'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'that's a flagrant abuse of pwoer'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the curse xhannel is also maybe? okay for letting off steam  (personally i neither use nor monitor the curse channel)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'I'm pretty sure Obama just sent Russian twenty nukes. Thoughts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Russia. Russia. I meant to type Russia.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Gawd, I should've known the debate channel would be as barren as Kim Katral's womanhood. Look at what you're doing with your lives...'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'hrm, Nighthaven is a comedian wannabe troll replacement for Tigernuts -- comedy is preferable to Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'high praise coming from the chief troll'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'That isn't what this channel is for, Zade. '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'comedy may be, but that wasn't comedy...'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thanks, Obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Can we get an Imm in here to straighten this ditch out?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'oh, wait.,... was i being complimented? '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Nighthaven blushes 
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not by anyone that matters :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'excuse me, abelinc. should u not be leveling? go an level. leave us pros alone'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'why would I be levelling?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'there aren't two l's in leveling. '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Or three. '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there are the way I do it :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'then you're doing it the wrong way.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'which is why I don't do it'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'omg. ur british, aren't u?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'i just looked it up, and it said that's the chiefly british way'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the correct way, then'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is nothing correct about british english'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'debating spelling is zade-level pointlessness, so moving swiftly on'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Emm nods at Tigernuts.
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for me it is naptime'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(debating nuances of language is excellent practice for debating at the various supreme courts)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'British people are wrong. Americans are right. What's left to debate?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'well, seeing as how the game is written and run by someone born and raised in the UK...'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'wat?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no, watt is scottish'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '(court tv) when watching the lawyers ramble on the finer nuances of law interpretation before the various supreme courts .. (almost an "aaaarrrgh" but those lawyers are serious in improving law interpretation) (also an exercise to follow what is being said, and avoid the temptation to fall asleep or switch channels or swich off the tv or (to repeat:) run screaming "aaaaarrrgh"  - good grammar-nazi fun)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the polite grammar-nazi arguing of the nuances of the law by lawyers (at various supreme courts) indirectly indicates some of the reasons that crude trolls (Tigernuts, etcetera) are not going to succeed at anything substantially political (rabble-rousing on a mud debate channel - seriously?!? - hahahahahahahahahahah)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that was a lot of words to say nothing with'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'droll -- court-tv at the supreme courts is or are even better = lots and lot and lots and lots and lots of words '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the scary part is that the supreme court decisions better be good or .. Welcome to HELL!!!'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so be careful when criticising english grammar-nazis (critique yes, criticise dubious) -- Great Britain was an imperialist nation  -- the sun never set on the Victorian Empire  (at this stage a rousing Troll chorus of  "Rule Brittania!  Brittania rule the waves" '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'seriously though, i'm not serious .. except when i'm serious ... (that's what the Ogre said)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'if that's what the ogre said, what did the fox say?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Nighthaven: 'Zade, do u wanna mudsex? r u a girl? Doesn't matter. i'm gonna pretend u are'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'die! Nighthaven'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like Saudi Arabia are making good on their threats against Russia earlier this year'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'if the US isn't involved, who cares?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'US is involved'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the Saudi royal family is essentially propped up by the USA, they are USA's ally, despite being responsible for 9/11, they are US's proxy force versus Iran'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the middle east will never be peaceful and calm until Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain are taken apart'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(and Israel)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"it's time to chew bubblegum or stomp Saudi Arabia, and there's no bubblegum."  Dancetime: The Stomp! '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'you just watch "stand up man" or something'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it were me, pull out of the middle east and stop supporting known terrorist governments (Saudi Arabia/Israel)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'if you think the US has no terrorist acts of its own, you need to share the shit you're doing.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't think that'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) I Sense Nonsense: 'If you think poop shoes is an illogical concept you need to freeze the poop first'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'our country was borne out of terrorism.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) I Sense Nonsense: 'Our country was born out of Jason Borne'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) I Sense Nonsense: 'International man of misery'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'speaking of Bourne, did you know he was friends with Martin Lindros?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'being friends with the guy who ordered your assassination has got to be the most fucked up thing I heard.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'The Bourne Conspiracy - not the movie'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'The Day of the Long Knives'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'and later the Bourne Betrayal (when Martin dies)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so what will 2014 bring?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than more poverty and bloodshed?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'Judges who issue warrants for your blood if you choose not to blow into a breathalyzer.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's already illegal to refuse a breathtest here, they're pushing for mandatory drug tests too'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bloodsuckers! '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'a case in Missouri went all the way to the state SC, and the justices ruled that the cops must first get a warrant for blood testing if someone refuses to blow.  So they got creative and now there's a judge on standby for just such occasions.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what do you think to that?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'I think it should never have been possible to drive drunk and then be able to dodge the net that would've caught you (as opposed to outright avoiding said net entirely).'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"is this the tips hotline in the UK - i'd like to report a somebody that may be on drugs when trolling on the Aardwolf debate channel.  If mandatory drug tests are already implemented in the UK."'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i think provided they pulled you over with just cause (you were driving badly) you shouldn't be able to refuse a breath test. Unfortunately they don't need such a reason in the UK, and I'm pretty sure there's now enough fluff law in the USA that they don't need a reason'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'personally, I think the DUI-safety devices that disable cars if you fail a blow should be mandatory.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'false security'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'absurdly easy to bypass'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'I honestly think we need to bulldoze or otherwise destroy property involved in any sort of crime involving a controlled substance (alcohol, prescription drugs, illegal drugs, etc).  Even if the owner wasn't involved in the perpetration of the crime.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'could we do the same thing with stupidity?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"You say psychiatric drugs are not illegal. Inane illogical trolling may be a side-effect of those legal drugs."     '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i would have agreed with you, unfortunately there's an issue with the definition of "crime"'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'ridiculously excessive'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you define crime in it's traditional sense as involving a victim, then yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'wrong and extremely bad Hanslanda'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'excessive, already happens here with certain traffic violations'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'just implement the drug law.  With the amount of shit that goes on in the prison system, it'd knock out the overcrowding problem as a bonus.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just repeal those laws :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'frankly, while I support laws that prohibit sale to minors, I would prefer to see adults free to fuck up their own lives'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at Dispel Majic.
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'new topic: "Nuke Israel"  (to eliminate oppressive abominations seeking to strike wickedly with fist or whatever) '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'I get the impression Hans would rather live in some sort of gistapo state where you are monitored everywhere you go and wearing the wrong colour clothing results in your clothing being burnt and a fine'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'in the 90s, the DEA could seize (and then ultimately destroy) your car just because some random gangbanger laid out his drug stash on the hood of your car and didn't recognize his buyer was an undercover agent.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'they can still seize your cash because it tests positive for drug residue, despite the fact that a large proportion of the cash in this country does.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all of the stupid stuff you see people being harassed by law enforcement for is the sort of stuff they need to remove laws about and start leaving people the fuck alone'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the DEA deserves to be euthanised, since the DEA flagrantly violates the constitution of the USA   (unreasonable seizure)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just close the department'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'close down the DEA, and then legally hunt down and hang draw and quarter the guilty DEA agents'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just redeploy them or make them redundant, or let them be rehired by any state-based replacement'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'zero forgiveness against those DEA abominations responsibe for DEA malfeasance'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'what are you talking about Zade?  The DEA is practically ineffective now.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the DEA agents are morally diseased, and require to be quarantined -- send them to a concentration camp --there are plenty in the USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there are lots of concentration camps in the USA, waiting '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'first verifiable, instantiated fact Zade's made all night'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'blaming the agent for the agency is moronic'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'there's nothing wrong with the agency, aside from the fact that due to past abuses they can't do shit anymore.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't need to exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Majic, you are saying "following orders is okay"  Heil!'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'actually, following an order you know to be illegal is in itself illegal. NSA are full of people who could be prosecuted'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'right, the DEA are packing people into concentration camps and starving/gassing them to death. Why hasn't this been in the news?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as far as I know, they have not, though the concentration camps do exist, though they are not for the use of the DEA'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'frankly, I do believe the DEA is fucked up and its priorities misplaced, but claiming that they should be 'hanged drawn and quartered' is utterly moronic.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'bad Majic escalated from quarantining to gassing - tsk tsk tsk'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the DEA prison camps are... prisons, run by the private sector who use the millions of people in jail for life for being black without due care and attention as slave labour'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'sorry? You were the one who made the comparison between DEA and Nazis'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'that's like saying the FCC or the FDA should be dismantled.  The stuff the DEA operates on does bad things to people.  Potheads and gangbangers won't see the errors of their ways just because they notice the authorities are MIA.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there is a death penalty in the USA -- and those guilty of the DEA malfeasance deserve to be put to death -- "hang draw and quarter" is great entertainment value (and those guilty deserve to suffer!)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the FDA should be disbanded, the FCC should have it's wings severely clipped'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'why do you think the FDA should be disbanded?  Do you, like, prefer the taste of human meat in your sausage?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's duties can be handled at state level'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it constantly oversteps it's authority'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'right, we need to apply the death penalty to law enforcement agents who confiscated stuff from the wrong people while following the law'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and that doesn't strike you as chilling in any way ...'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'drugs approved state by state? seems very redundant, very inefficent.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or it can be significantly scaled down in terms of duties'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'as far as potheads, I would rather deal with potheads than alcoholics'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is callous when others are callous
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'you project Starling way too much, Zade, to ever be not-callous.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'flak is whack, yo!'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the DEA deserves to be treated callously, as the DEA was callous'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are plenty of prison camps, former army bases and such set up to hold political prisoners in the event of martial law'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'zero-tolerance  (although this is merely the troll channel -- the likelihood of the judgements trolled in the channel actually happening ... (maybe when i become god - dwahahahahahahahahah ... darn, the rules and regulations of being a benign god, darn))'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'after that brief moment of lucidity, zade is descending into madness again'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm disappointed but not surprised'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'trolls are never disappointing, Tiger.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'seriously, think about how awful Aard would be if we didn't have trolls to occupy our time.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well i guess they serve to help develop patience'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'staring at a wall for hours on end serves the same purpose.  Which would you consider to be more fun?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'true'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'what - as a Zade, i don't necessarily require to follow the rules and regulations of a benign god .. evil grin '
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Hanslanda is seeming to  criticise some oriental monks (those that stare at blank walls hours on end)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Zade reminds me of James Nochty'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'it's necessary that you do, Zade, given that one of his rules is actually that you don't necessarily have to. ;)'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'its'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i damn near pissed myself laughing at the plight of the global warming scientists who have had their ship trapped in record-level antarctic sea ice since xmas eve'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Mardell: 'wow seriously?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'did you mistakenly assume that climate change (global warming is a dirty word now) meant Desert Earth instead of Snowball Earth?'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i made no such assumption, but usually expect if some bit of science is "settled", then the predictions made by the models the science is based on actually match real world results'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that expectation seems broken at every turn, hence i call bollocks'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'extra global warming produces extra humidity which produces extra winter polar ice -- a smart troll is able to conjecture this -- but excess global warming also does other things, perhaps sinister things'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'nope, it doesn't work that way, Zade.'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'those trapped incompetent polar scientists may be shills for the burn-as-much-natural-resources-as-fast-as-possible-and-get-rich lobby'
T3/r7/2013-12-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'probably'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your daily learning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b0w36GAyZIA'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hour lecture from the 30th chaos congress on hacking'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks, obama'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'welcome, Hitler'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bncWsjTPEwI'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that video exhonerates my decision not to have a smartphone'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's an awesome tutorial, well worth the watch'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Retail analysis company ShopperTalk revealed that footfall to brick & mortar retail in the week leading up to xmas was down 21.2% on the same period last year. Internet sales were only up 3.9% on the same period, failing to make up the shortfall'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'mortgage applications meantime hit a 13 year low in December 2013 in the USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'What is the chance that the "Temporary" postal increase in the US will be permanent?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '100%'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'They wouldn't do that to us would they.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'inflation'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'why tout it as 'temporary''
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you do know that a .78x + 1.03 could be less than equal to or greater than 1x +1y right tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you do know that a .78x + 1.03y could be less than equal to or greater than 1x +1y right tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sorry missed a y'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well one would assume so'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'surely y = 1.03 - 0.22x'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just saying that a 22% drop in brick and morter sales and a 3% increase in online sales could actually be a net gain'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also since internet sales involve shiping it might be better to comapare sales over the entire christmas shopping period rather than just the last week of it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since most things bought the week before christmas online would not arrive before christmas'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's not likely unless online sales accounts for a large multiple of highstreet sales, and irrespective of that, online sales tend to go to Amazon and faceless corporates that do not benefit local economies'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i do not grant your premise that shoping at local stores benefits the local economy more than getting the best deal you can all things considered'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '(note that I am not saying that I think it is untrue, just that I don't think it is axiomatic).'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in practical terms it is true'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'studies have shown that walmarts improve local economies even though some businesses may suffer because of them.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't know of any in depth studies on the effects of online shopping on local economies.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given that most of the online trade goes to amazon and ebay neither of whom pay tax, and who employ a fraction of the people, i'd say it's an issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but the general premise of greater specialization and trade = greater profits for all would argue for it being good for them'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think that is an interesting question that deserves study'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what good is it that you save 10% on your purchases if 10% have been made redundant?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'also amazon does pay taxes, just not necessarily local taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'made redundant how?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'made redundant through local highstreet stores closing. Amazon pays no tax nationally'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'everyone getting the things that they can best get online there improves their individual financial situation'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'leaving them with more money to spend on things they can't get online (like most services).'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'simply isn't true'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'this is the entire point of competitive advantage'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'prove it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'show me the study that demonstrates it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying you can't take it for granted that you are right.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are plenty of studies showing how both online sales and large out of town chains kill of local businesses'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'are there?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and do those show that individuals in those communities are, on average, worse off because of this?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'has there been a scientific study? probably not, people don't tend to do scientific studies on things that are blatantly obvious'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'pretty sure ebay and amazon pay tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'neither pay appropriate tax, elchanan'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they do, and soon they will be paying state taxes in most states if the current trend in court cases continues'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sure, Emm, has the number of people out of work gone up or down with the proliferation of online shopping?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well that is a problem with your tax system not the existence of online retailers'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'well ebay is a middle man'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'hardly conclusive evidence tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not the local tax system, it's the global tax system, or rather it's a result of globalisation'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and actually my guess is that the correlation is in the other direction'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if for no other reason than people shop more when they are employeed'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, hence less employment means less people shopping'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which means that as internet sales increase so does employement'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which says nothing about which one is causing the other or if both are being caused by a third factor'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'internet shopping requires fewer staff'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes we just agreed to that'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Akuri: 'maybie for the areas which the companies are based'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, you just proved the opposite'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I thought we agreed that employed people shop more?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'looks like ebay paied around 15% taxes 12 months ending 2012 12 31'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, and it was also stated that online stores put local business out of business'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so it would be pretty startling to see an inverse correlation between employement and online shopping.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not startling, it's blatantly obvious'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'putting local business out of business does not necessarily mean that the people in the area are in general worse off'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it means they're out of work'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not necessarily, and even if it does, that just means they aren't providing a service that is demanded by the market'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and they need to shift to something more in demand'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Amazon, UK revenue $7bn, UK tax: $4m'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and wow looks like amazon got taxed even more'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just because you have historically been able to make a profit doing so does not mean that anyone owes you the ability to continue to do so against competitive pressure.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Ebay, UK revenue $1.3bn, UK tax: $2m'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's totally irrelevent, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is completely relevant'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'almost like like amazon paied 78% taxes 12 months ending 2012'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that amazon and ebay are not taxed similarly to other providers of the same goods is a potential problem for many reasons'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it wasn't a question of whether things need to change or adapt, it was a question of whether the transition caused unemployment'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'umm tax aint on revenue buddy'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'tax is on income'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but even if they paid the same taxes as everyone else they would likely still outcompete local business'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well sales tax is on revenue'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Ebay had a projected profit of $250m. They dodged the tax thanks to the fucking EU'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'sales tax is paied buy the buyer'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no sales tax is paid by the seller'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'thats a pass through tansaction'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that they charge the buyer is purely a matter of market pressures'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'eg item at store cost 1$ store charges 1.06'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who actually bears the burden of a sales tax is an empirical question with an answer that is unrelated to the assignment of the accounting of it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'the .06 passed through to tax man'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'taxes are dodged by funneling money via luxemberg, by charging for mythical things like franchise fees, or non-existant service charges'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as is seen when taxes are raised and businesses lower prices to compensate'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the tax dodging has nothing to do with sales taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in that case the business is bearing the burden of the tax (or at least that portion that corrisponds to the price drop)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I know TN I was responding to Elchanan'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I agree with you that online busineses should be required to comply with appropriate tax laws of where they are doing business'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and let me say you respond poorly'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the whole "use tax" system is just bogus'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so elchanan?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nothing I said was the least bit untrue or contestablel.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just because there is something on your receipt that says sales tax does not mean that YOU are paying the sales tax.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than the effect of online/OoT chains on local business'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'this is simple economics.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i missed something TN?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'retailers collect the sales tax here'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I donm't disagree that local business can (and often do) suffer under the competition from chains or online outlets.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'sales tax is paid by buyer not seller'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and amazon collects sales tax in NY'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and will likely soon collect them everywhere'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we are moving to a system of sales tax being collected based on point of delivery rather than point of "sale"'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'its even true in florida at least if you buy from out of state then you are supposed to report the purchase and pay taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'at least in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'Yes Elchanan thats called a "use tax" not a sales tax, although they are usually reciprocal'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'yes i know that its called'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and its based on sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and its based on sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm not convinced with the law they're proposing for you guys with regards internet taxc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i.e. if you pay a 5 cents a dollar tax in alabama, and then import to florida where the tax is 6 cents on the dollar then you should only have to pay the extra 1%'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'true emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but regardless of whether it is a use tax or a sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the trouble with the proposed law is that it is NOT restricted to internet sales'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'unless you use the item outside of florida for i think it was 6 months'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who bears the burden of the tax is determined by elasticity of supply and demand, not who bears the accounting burden'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '(note that the accounting burden is not insubstantial and not identical)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'personally I think that use taxes are borderline unconstitutional since they amount to a tax on exports from another state, which is expressly forbidden to the states.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think they'd be better off saying "if you purchase at bricks and mortar, you pay the local tax, if you buy online you pay the tax local to the purchaser'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but im not the guy in charge of making that decision'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is what is happening tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'yea yea in economic profits vs accounting profits'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'regulating commerce between the states is within scope for the federal government under the constitution, is it not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i didn't think you paid sales tax on internet sales period in the USA'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'if company has office in your state they charge you sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is a whole string of cases headed for the US Supreme Court trying to get online retailers to have to collect sales taxes for the jurisdiction that they are shipping to (if they ship to that jurisidiction in volume enought to be considered connection to the jurisdiction (probably about $40,000 annually).'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and if they don't?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats the thing that scotus will soon decide'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'whether merely shipping to a jurisdiction amounts to connection to the jurisidiction for the purpose of subject matter jurisidiction.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think they should enact sales tax rate of the buyer and apply it to all distance selling. I can't think of any simpler or fairer way of doing it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'i wonder how transportation companies are taxed'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if you think about it shipipng companies are acting as agents for the shippers'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so mere delivery of an item results in a connection to the jurisdiction'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'they don't really sell products (or when they do those are taxed just like anything else sold in a brick and mortar store)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'services for shipping are generally taxed at the point of departure rather than the point of arrival'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course here, we're just walloped with a flat 20% sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is a strong argument that it should be split somehow'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you tax distance sales at the rate of the seller then the sellers all move to the lowest tax regime to gain advantage, not a helpful thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'maybe it is a helpful thing tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'competition between governments is rare, but when we can arrange it that seems like it can only be a good thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and thanks to the fucking EU, if i buy something from the USA, i pay 12.8% import duty AND 20% sales tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I do think it should be split 50/50'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'point of departure and point of arrival'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '50% of each's tax rate'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it won't be competition, it'll be all the red states instituting an online tax rate of 0%'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which will see companies moving there and california and new york will bitch and moan and you'll be right back to square one'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '50% might sound fair, but is extremely difficult to administer'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not really'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its not like amazon doesn't know where it is shipping to and from'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the end user doesn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'computers can calculate this sort of thing fairly easily'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but they can be told'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'by amazon'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if you accept the premise that merely shipping to a state puts the company into that states jurisdiction for those things shipped there'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that would be contrary to how they currently operate and would be a bitch to try and navigate'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'then they would be subject to audits etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you try comparing prices then, you'd have to display the price including sales taxes, which means knowing where the shopper is, which isn't easy either'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'collecting sales tax rate of the buyer applied ot all distance selling is hardly a "simple" way of doing it, when there are literally millions of different jurisdictions and rates for the seller to keep track of if that happens (without a very substantial minimum volume attached)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it would be contrary to how they currently operate, but if SCOTUS says that they have to pay sales taxes in the end jurisdictions they might want to think about pushing for such a compromise'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i doubt such a compromise will come out, it'll fall one way or the other'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'makes more sense for distance selling for rate to be applied to and handed to the buyers jurisdiction'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it's not reasonably maintainable without very large volumes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is it not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no, it is not'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you already store delivery address, so it requires no extra storage'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'that's not correct'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'do elaborate'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it requires the state (and possibly local) sales tax information'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if its just the 50 states then thats not a big deal'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'while computers can do lookups easily, the actual data for that lookup is simply not available in any meaninful manner...tax laws can be extremely complex, and the store would need to know millions of jurisdiction ones'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could always set a distance selling tax rate that is fixed federally'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but if they have to store every city, and county, and water district, and school district that assesses sales taxes then that could get problematic'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that would require a constitutional amendment tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'town A charges sales tax on clothing, town B on prepared foods but not unprepared foods, etc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'for a federal establishment of a state tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'to get around the anticommendering principle'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then you have no real options left, you either have that lookup complexity, or you leave the status quo'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'some places, you've got different tax rate when you just cross the street...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we could just have it be by state (or nation for non US)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and let the states decide if they want to provide more detailed information'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'out of country it is handled by customs'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and make the online retailers only responsible for collecting those reported to it by the proper state authority.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'then the states could, if they so desired, create GIS databases with the exact tax that each street address is required to pay'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course then people might get po boxes in neighboring towns to reduce taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it would be the birth of a very lucrative business, just keeping track of and maintaining the databases'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but thats another set of problems'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'could the online retailers send details to state tax regimes of who'd bought what?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as someone who just finished GIS class I approve of the creation of that business.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'easily'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then you'd have issues with people not paying their tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is actually already a system setup in most states to allow the reporting of income automatically, it wouldn't be that hard to modify that to handle sales data.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, which gets into more privacy issues ;-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well do we really have any privacy really?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we should, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sure we should, but do we, will we ever again?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'depends if you can oust your government and put someone in that can take the NSA in hand'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'still I prefer the idea of requiring online (and mail order) retailers to collect taxes at the rate the state provides them based on address'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and leave it up to the state to decide if it will let local entities collect taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'since local entities are creations of the state'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that reduces it to a political issue for each state'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sounds sensible. If it's in the interests of the states to make the information available to online sellers, they'll do it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think this sounds like a good paper topic for my next tax class.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and it could be reasonably easily applied to foreign countries as well'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't need to be applied to foreign countries'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if UK wants amazon to collect and remit the sales tax then they can inform amazon of the amount'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it's not necessarily a question of do we have privacy so much as we have privacy silos currently...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they wouldn't choose to do that because customs is part of the security set up'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the country doesn't want amazon to collect the sales tax then it just doesn't give them an amount to collect'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that is easy enough'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think we would probably want to have a rule that the state has to provide it to substantially all online retailers not just pick and choose though'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'otherwise you could see some really shady backroom dealings.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i can't see UK doing that, customs is tighter than fort kno'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'knox'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'do we really need more taxes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they're also, from my experience, thieving bastards'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'its not about more taxes elchanan its about more balanced tax systems'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, a box of split-shot sinkers showed up at my house a couple months ago...my dad had them shipped to me because they can't be sold to new york state addresses, he just forgot to tell me about it until after they came'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as long as we are going to have a sales tax forcing local companies to pay it and online and mailorder companies not having to is unfair'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and (as tigernuts correctly points out) potentially damaging to the local economy'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you should probably not discuss violating interstate shipping law on public channels abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not that I am qualified to give you legal advice'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'yea i agree with that. I would think its highly costly to alter tax structures drastically or often.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but i would say that is especially true if the shipment you are discussing is a munition'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not illegal to have something shipped where it is allowed'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the political (and administrative) costs and benefits can be calculated and the states can choose to engage or not'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it depends on how much revenue they are giving up by not reforming their system'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'this was fishing sinkers, not munitions...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'well thats not exactly unfair'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ahh well nm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'lead?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if its not illegal to ship them there, only illegal to sell them to be shipped there then that is something else entirely'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'thipping cost still has to be paied'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'shipping and payed :P'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'paid?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'yea that'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'im a horrible speller :P'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'nod tiger, that's the reason'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'dumb arse green lobby'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bunch of nanny state fuckwits'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'as long as it isn't illegal to own them in NY or ship them to NY for private individuals'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'since 2004, the sale of lead fishing sinkers weighing 1/2 ounce or less was disallowed'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'just the sale'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'like dumb rules preventing lead use in ammunition manufacture'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think that rule is dumb at all tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'what state abe'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'lead is a toxic pollutant'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the actual statute is: No person shall sell at retail or offer for retail sale lead fishing sinkers weighing one-half ounce or less. '
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and it kills carrion birds that eat the entrails left behind by hunters'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'where tho abe'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'NY'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'new york, I mentioned that earlier'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think fishing weights get left behind all that often though'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so thats probably a stupid rule'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'ahh ok because i think mass has something restricting the size of lead weight for freshwater use'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'insignificant. it had to do with being able to pass -any- form of anti-gun law without needing congress'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'lol emm I lost one a few weeks ago'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'probably a 1 oz'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they genuinely gave a shit about toxic pollutants, they wouldn't have shipped energy production to Mexico and production of just about everything else in the universe to China'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and i was using about 50lb test braided line'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well the answer is of course to tax the pollutants including on imports'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not practical, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and not what they wanted'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'actually in most cases it is more practical than current regulatory nightmares'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'using 12lb test and smaller mono lines you will break off more often'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you taxed imports heavily, manufacture might move to the USA, and the government can't possibly have that'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '(not politically practical though because Republicans think "tax" is a four letter word).'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'actually, removing trade barriers is a leftie thing'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again I just think everything should be competing on an even footing in terms of taxation'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'could prob go through a whole handful of 1/4 oz weights if using wrong gear'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and I think that negative externalities (especially pollution ones with diverse sources and harms) should be a primary focus of tax law rather than primarily regulated'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'taxing externalities worldwide is a nice idea, but impractical'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'transportation taxes *cough*'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'like tax rate for mileage driven'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'or flown'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'but one thing govt's dont really want to do is cause less transactions to happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm all for import taxes :-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'not necessarily a import tax more of a docking fee:P'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'would have prevented the collapse that has resulted from globalisation'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'something that would be based on the transport method used'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why is it impractical tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i mean there is the problem of calculating the true value of the externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and determining the appropriate tax to counter it (which studies show is actually somewhat less than the actual damage of the externality)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but that would have to be done for national (or local) taxation of the externality as well'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'once it is done it isn't hard to apply it to other countries'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and you can have tax credits for companies in countries that have thier own tax on that externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just like we already do with some things.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't understand why people think that complex necessarily means impractical in this day and age'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we have massive data processing capabilities.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'we have massive data processing capabilities, but we don't often have ways to seed said data processing capabilities...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the second you have a complicated tax regime, you have a dodgable tax regime'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'which was the main issue with the "tax at the buyer's rate"...computers can calculate it with no problem if they have the rules input, but they don't exist anywhere [yet]'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it would be impossible to tax imports on exteralities without knowing exactly how they were produced'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'yes but if we leave it up to the people who want to collect the tax at the buyers rate to create the systems there really shouldn't be a problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's bad enough with the huge catalogue of codes for existing excise'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'either they will make it or they won't'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and what that rate should be can be decided at the state political level'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could perhaps enact such taxation on imported energy and fuel, but that's about it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course ALL political systems are corruptable and probably corrupt, but that is a seperate issue.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not at all tn'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we know how much energy it takes to make a piece of computer hardware'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, you do not'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we know the energy profiles of every country in the world'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you know how much energy it would take at an efficient plant, and at an inefficient plant...you don't know how much it took to make it "here"...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we know how much of what pollutants are produced for the most part.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'true, but we can estimate, and let the manufacture prove if it is less.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the best you could do is approximate across a class of goods'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'again, we know how much of what pollutants are produced using "clean" processes and using "dirty" ones...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we can do a lot better than that tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you really can't'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why not?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we can if we want, just assume dirty inefficient methods and allow companies to prove otherwise if they want to pay less tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because you could never keep track of it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and how would you propose to prove it...I doubt China's gonna open up visibility to how much energy their plants are using'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it doesn't fit in with a small/simple government model'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'far easier to just tax all imports and encourage local manufacture where you can regulate the externalities'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'actually we have pretty good ideas about how much energy plants use in china abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'maybe not to the individual plant level but a general amount'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and again if it is worth it to the company to prove lower rates, then they will find a way to do so'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course it would be subject to cheating, but thats really true of just about any tax system'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the point of the system isn't to be perfect, it is just to put pressure on externalities, and hopefully lift some pressure on things that we don't really want to distort (like labor markets)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that can be achieved using broad brush import tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Amorok: 'who is simon cowell?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'reward people for playing when others are as well i guess'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'how about a tax for whenever electronic money is converted to hard currency'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how about we get rid of fiat currencies and return to a precious metal standard?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and kill all the bankers :)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'because that would be aweful'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'precious metal standard might prove difficult now'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since western countries sold it all to russia, india, and china'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well that was their mistake'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'l'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'the money supply should contract expand alond with the needs and wants of the world, so to speak'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'along with'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there are soo many problems with our money and financial systems that I don't even know where to start'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'im just saying there is an externality involved with using paper money'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'other than by saying we should pass a constitutional amendment to require the death penalty for the kind of crap that the bankers pulled in the whole build up to the bailout, the bailout, and how it was used etc.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how so elchanan?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'namely being that transactions with paper $ are not transparent'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'how is that an externality'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'upon whom is a cost imposed?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'there is losses in tax revenue associated with it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'law abiding tax payers'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'hmm, I am not sure that is necessarily true'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if it is true then how does taxing conversion to paper help address it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there would just be a trade in paper money in the places that are avoiding the detection of the electronic systems (which probably already happens so this would just reinforce it)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'if you buy something with electronic currency the transaction can be recorded'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it can be, but it isn't automatically'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and paper money transactions can be recorded too, they are all the time'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and alot of times they are not'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and if you completely eliminate paper money you would probably just push the grey market into developing its own electronic currency'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'umm like BTC'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no comment'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'rofl'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'just a small tax ... maybe like .01%'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't see how taxing the conversion helps even if you grant the externality exists'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'best leave paper money alone and just stop printing it to stabalise the supply'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the conversion isn't the problem the problem is unrecorded trades'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but unreported buying and selling is illegal in a system with income taxes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and sales taxes for that matter'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and to locate those unrecorded trades needs funding right'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so we are already working from the premise that the people causing the problem are criminals'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you are proposing taxing people who have a legitimate and legal need for paper currency'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'why should they specifically bear the burden of catching criminals who use paper money?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why bother?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'real criminals don't use paper money'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'this would be like taxing all gun sales to pay for investgating and prosecuting gun crimes'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the real criminals aren't criminals at all, they are "too big to prosecute"'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'i have no problem with a small ammo tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there already is a gun/ammo tax'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't either, but for completely different reasons'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I am not sure that gun owners (the law abiding kind) should bear the burden of finding the illegal kind'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it isn't as if transactions where guns are sold to criminals are going to be reported to begin with'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'why not'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'debate why do legal gun owners bear a special responsibilty for the existence or action of illegal gun users?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'well we could just out law all guns'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why should legal gun owners bear a responsibility for non-gun owners crimes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'at least not without an amendment'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'yes emm its called constitutional ammendments... and they can be changed las time i checked'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well sure, but it will never happen'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'because they want to protect thier right to bear arms'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't try and ammend the constitution for things that it NEEDS ammending for, what makes you think they would for anything else?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't really know how I feel about the existence of the second'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '2nd is pretty important, and just as much under fire as the 1st, 3rd, and 4th'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'and part of protection those right means no having arms in the people who are non law abiding'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't know if it is pretty important or not, but it certainly isn't "as much under fire" as the others'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well more than the 3rd but I didn't realize we had a problem with housing soldiers in our homes in times of peace'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'perhaps you meant the 5th, or the 6th, or the 8th'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ahh, that's because you need to update the interpretation in view of modern technology'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'we are quartering soldiers in our homes?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'last I checked there weren't any drones in my house'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I don't think the third has anything to do with privacy if thats what you are getting at'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b0w36GAyZIA'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'explained in there'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'speaking of rarely used but potentially relevant amendments, what do you think of the idea that the 13th amendment prohibts banning abortion?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nonsense'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(my opinion of that)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'with the exception of rape, you choose to get pregnant by your actions'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'what does that have to do with anything?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you choose to get in debt by your own actions'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so debtors prison should be reinstated?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the point is that if you fundementally accept that a pregnancy is having one life form inside of another, then forcing the other to carry the first to term is a form of slavery'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not forcing, you chose it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'fundamentally'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'consider it a life-contract'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again we do not allow indentured servitude'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'being a parent -is- indentured servitude, you can't stop being a parent'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'just because you choose to take a job does not mean that they can force you to continue to do that job if you become dissatisfied with it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'of course you can'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'once the child is born you can drop it off at a fire station'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no you can't, you can give a child up for adoption, but you're still it's parent'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but you are not forced to do anything for the child (beyond putting it out of your care)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not strictly true'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is in every jurisdiction in the US'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not here'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sometimes it isn't the fire station'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'regardless, you can't apply that sort of logic to pregnancy because it is neither one thing nor the other'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but there is always a location that it can be done, and they are always widespread (hospitals, fire departments, etc)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and the best, simplest, and most clear cut interpretation is that with the exception of rape, you opted to become pregnant'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well it is either a single life form or two life forms'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want to consider that pregancy servitude, then consider getting pregnant when you didn't want it a crime'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again you chose to take the job, but they can't force you to stay in it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not a job'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'at least in the US that is illegal under the 13th'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a biological process'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the correllary is there'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is either 1 life form or two'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you don't want to be subject to that process, don't get pregnant, or cut out your womb'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if it is one life form then obviously what she does with it is no business of anyone else'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'isn't it technically a parasite?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if it is two, then forcing her to carry it to term is a violation of the 13th'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thats probably the best description'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'although people get offended when liberals call it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not a violation of the 13th because the 13th applies to being enslaved in work'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it doesn't'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it can be all sorts of things'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'slave babies didn't typically have to work, but they certainly were still slaves'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well by that definition then everyone is a slave'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'howso?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a pregnant mother is not property of the unborn, cannot be bought or sold by the child'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only criteria it meets is the forced to work bit'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is a bit of a stretch anyway'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you could argue that it is illegal to be ill with a virus or bacteria infection because it's slavery'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a nonsense argument'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at least you get to choose whether to get pregnant or not, you don't often choose to get ill, or to be a slave'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no it would only be illegal for the government to prevent you from ridding yourself of the illness'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think you're barking up the wrong tree with that, it's absurd'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and saying that everyone who gets pregnant chooses to become pregnant (excepting rape and rapelike scenarios)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'is actually wrong too'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you choose to go outside and interact with people which can get you sick with the flu'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so by your logic the government could require to you not treat your flu symptoms, but bear the flu to term.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jhav: 'I'm pretty sure that outside of a few exceptional cases, interacting with other people is not optional.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i wasn't arguing that, Emm, i wasn't arguing that the 13th was justification for banning anything'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not justification for ruling either direction'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not applicable'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you were arguing a reason that it wasn't and your argument was flawed and i showed the analogy that shows why it is flawed'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the fact that it's flawed shows the premise is dodgy in the first place'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '1) choosing to have sex is not choosing to become pregnant, 2) even if you choose to become pregnant that doesn't mean you give up the right to choose to become not pregnant.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'wait the fact that you can't come up with a nonflawed way to refute my premise is proof that my premise is dodgy?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not everywhere in the US has "safe haven" laws, btw'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't disagree, the point at which a foetus can survive outside of the mother is the point at which abortion should be banned'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'which state doesn't?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'choosing to have [unprotected] sex is choosing to be open to the possibility of pregnancy'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, i also think that it shouldn't be an issue. If people weren't so fucking stupid, you wouldn't require so many abortions and it wo uldn't be such a contentious issue'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i know plenty of people who have gotten pregnant from "protected" sex'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and there are definitely jobs that you can choose to take, which you are not at libert to leave when you s ochoose'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's no such thing as protected sex unless you're infertile'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'condoms break, the pill is only 99% effective'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'apart from the military which is a whole different ball of wax name one abelinc?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'condoms don't break that often...and that's 99% for the moments of fertility, which isn't that much of the time'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in the US that is'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nevertheless abe the point is protection isn't perfect, and that still doesn't detract from point 2.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Akuri: 'you cant do the action without the possibility of reprocution and if you do then it is irresponsible of both the parents'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'if you know "plenty of people" that got pregnant from protected sex, you know a lot of liars or people who don't know how to use the protection'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, it's all bullshit'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you can't take the risk of the act, don't do it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yes, there are people who have gotten pregnant from protected sex...there are not "plenty", and certainly not plenty within a single person's social sphere'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'who gets to define the risks of the act though?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not relevent, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the risk of getting pregnant does not necessarily entail the risk of having to carry a child to term'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the risks have been known for thousands of years...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'banning abortion outside the first trimester seems a reasonable and pragmatic compromise'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and people have been taking moon tea for thosands of years abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so next argument?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Akuri: 'we are medically advanced enough that the point is kinda moot'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the whole abortion argument could be mostly solved by undoing the damage done to the social fabric over the last 50 years'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'how does that change anything?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you said the risk of getting pregnant has been known for 1000s of years'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it has'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I countered that abortions (moon tea) has been prevelant for just as long'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so if there is an inherent risk in it there is an inherent right to limit the risk'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and as the recent case in texas proves circumstances change'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'abortions haven't ever been an inherent right to limit the risk'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there is a woman on life support against her express will because she is pregnant'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the risk is inherent by definition...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the right isn't inherent and would need to be externally-enforced'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the scope of the risk is also inherent by definition'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when does the foetus become a person?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'first unassisted breath'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'plenty of aborted fetuses have broken that...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and plenty more would've broken that if they were allowed to breathe'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unlikely you'll ever get a concensus on this question'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'that would be murder, and it gets prosecuted as such'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'best you can do is compromise'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'comprimise with people who wish to force thier will on others'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it'd be prosecuted as such if there were anyone to do the prosecuting...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'pretty much the epitomy of government reaching into places it doesn't belong'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'abortions are people who wish to force their will on others ;-)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'huh?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you think the kid wants to die?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'abortions are people?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why not kill kids up to age 3, as some democrats have been pushing'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I think the kid is presentient, but that is beside the point'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is it beside the point?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the kid isn't any more presentient than a 1-hour-old...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Amorok: 'abortion.. '
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the point is if you believe that the fetus is a distinct life form, then forcing the mother to carry it against her will is the government forcing servitude without any crime having been commited'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why is it servitude?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'adhering to your commitment isn't forced servitude'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why is it not servitude me eating pickled onions when they give me bad guts?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if the government forces you to do it it is tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Getting raped is a commitment now?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'last time i checked, eating pickled onions isn't a crime'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rape was excluded from this right at the very beginning, Yuna'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'chosing to have sex is not inherently commiting to having a child'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, it is'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Oh, I wasn't around for that. I thought we were talking about the current actual debate going on in the U.S.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'only if you have some fucked up christian morality'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, emm, it's a biological fact'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'even before roe vs wade, abortions were always legal for cases of rape or mother's health'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so is moon tea tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'some people get pleasure from eating, but it's a biological function'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no they weren't abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no it isn't, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yes they were, emm'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you are wrong'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'in the US they were'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'nope'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'You should only be allowed to support banning abortion if you also supporting the following: Comprehensive sex ed. Free or at least heavily subsidized contraceptives (which include the morning after pill, which doesn't cause abortions. It only prevents fertilization).'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'AND a comprehensive safety net for those who are forced to become mothers without being able to afford it.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you shouldn't be restricted to those things for any reason, yuna'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Learn. To. Read.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'all of those exist currently'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you can't dictate what peopel support'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Like fuck they do, Abelinc.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sex ed is parental responsibility'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Abstinence Only education. Ever heard of it?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and contraceptives are already free'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the texas statue roe overturned did not have a rape exception abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yuna: in the US, they do'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'In the US they do what, Abelinc?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Akuri: 'if a mother wants to kill her baby kill kill the mother for making the mistake and the baby too sparing a life of poverty and institutionalized living'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they exist currently'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'WHAT exist?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'your criteria for supporting banning abortion exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so you are wrong abelinc'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'frayed knot'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'the only exception in the texas law was to save the life of the mother.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'time to get your sources out'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'There are literally states in the U.S. where it is ILLEGAL for schools to teach kids sex ed. There are many states where parents can opt their kids out of sex ed, which leaves kids' ability to learn how to properly avoid unwanted pregnancies up to the whims of their nutbag parents.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'will wikipedia do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'we have the internet to teach sex ed :p'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Endtime: 'yeah cuz the internet doesnt exist'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or do you want the actual case'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i wouldn't leave schools to teach my kids sex ed, i'd do it myself'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it will, given that wiki supports my statement...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Also, Abelinc, comprehensive safety net my ass.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you will NEVER find a perfect solution to the abortion problem'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '-ever-'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the best you can do is a pragmatic compromise'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the details of which i have already laid out for my suggestion'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'The pragmatic compromise being: Allow abortions within a certain time limit (the period before a fetus becomes a baby that can survive if born prematurely). You don't like abortions? Don't have one. Let others choose for themselves.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, allow abortions for first trimester, encourage charities to give free implants, and use societal pressure to discourage unprotected sex, and discourage promiscuity'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'whos rights are more importain, the womans or the unborn baby?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'A pregnant single woman (Roe) brought a class action challenging the constitutionality of the Texas criminal abortion laws, which proscribe procuring or attempting an abortion except on medical advice for the purpose of saving the mother's life.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'directly from the syllabus of the case'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'In June 1969, Norma L. McCorvey discovered she was pregnant with her third child. She returned to Dallas, Texas, where friends advised her to assert falsely that she had been raped in order to obtain a legal abortion (with the understanding that Texas law allowed abortion in cases of rape and incest). However, this scheme failed because there was no police report documenting the alleged rape.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '"If any person shall designedly administer to a pregnant woman or knowingly procure to be administered with her consent any drug or medicine, or shall use towards her any violence or means whatever externally or internally applied, and thereby procure an abortion, he shall be confined in the penitentiary not less than two nor more than five years'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'depends on whose syllabus you're reading and how comprehensively they wish to state it...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'What was that supposed prove, Abelinc?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if it be done without her consent, the punishment shall be doubled. By 'abortion' is meant that the life of the fetus or embryo shall be destroyed in the woman's womb or that a premature birth thereof be caused."'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: '"Nothing in this chapter applies to an abortion procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother."'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again directly from Roe v. Wade, quoting the relevant law'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'there was a precident in Federal common law for the rape exception'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but nothing in texas law allowed for it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'except for it being legal...'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'where?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'whats the article that made it legal'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'or the texas court case?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_abortion_statutes_(1961)'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course, the other option is to remove all reference to it in federal law and let states make up their own mind'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'The only exception was if the abortion was needed in order to save the life of the murder. There was no exception for cases of rape.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Took me literally 5 seconds to look up.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no, the only written exception'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thanks Yuna, glad to know those 2 weeks of my con law class were wasted when a 5 second internet search returns the same results'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'that's not the same as the only exception'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'The fuck are you talking about? There are "unwritten" exceptions now?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not now...always '
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Like, what, the courts just looked the other way?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not at all'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Are you on, Crazybags?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the meaning of the law'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'The law was very clear. There was no exceptions in cases of rape. Abortions were illegal EXCEPT if the life of the mother was in danger (and even then a simple "There MIGHT be a risk" didn't always suffice").'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'things which were considered to be a given were not written'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'The MEANING of the law was "We don't give a fuck. No abortions for you! Unless you'd die anyway."'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'again, you think the law was clear, and yet you're incorrect'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Yeah. Let's not listen to every written record of the law. Let's go with our "feelings".'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'I'm done here. I'm not gonna attempt to reason with Tigernuts ver. 2.0.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'nothing to do with feelings'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well -i- don't know, and don't much care, not really that relevent to what is best for the future'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'abelinc please point to a law or case that stands for the principle that rape exception existed prior to roe v wade in texas'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'i just searched on westlaw and found nothing'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Summoner Yuna: 'Ssshhh, Emm. Don't bother him with facts!'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anyway, the 13th ammendment is not relevent to abortion because pregnant mothers are not considered property and cannot be traded'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'neither are indentured servants tigernuts but that is also outlawed by the 13th'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and the ability to be traded is not inherent in slavery'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it is'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'it is entirely possible to have a slavery law that does not allow trading'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then how do you become a slave?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they are considered property, regardless'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'indentured servitude requires a contract'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'again not true tigernuts'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's debt bondage'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it differs from slavery by virtue of it being contractual rather than being considered property'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'in many cases jurisdictions tried to turn slaves into indentured servants by claiming that they owed for all the support they received while slaves'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'without any contract'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'by claiming they are owed money implies debt'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is essentially forcing a contract on them'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'according to the slavery convention of 1926, slavery is "the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised"'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'ANY or all of the the powers attaching to the right of ownership'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yup, people as property'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'and "all work or service which is exacted from any person under the menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily"'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sounds like everyone under threat of the government, but i've always argued that we are are in indentured servitude'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'well that may be true too'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, neither my definitions or yours would apply to a pregnant mother'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but i think its a more clear cut case in the realm of abortion'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'not that there aren't other more satisfying reasons why government outlawing abortion is outragous'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than preventing murder?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'if you are hanging off a bridge and I am holding you up, do i have a duty to continue to hold you up?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'is it murder for me to let go?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's suicide for you to let go, which is self-murder'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'no you are the one hanging off the bridge not me'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'you fall off the side of a bridge, and I reach out and grab you trying to save you'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'but I decide it hurts to much to try to haul you up, so I let go'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'did I commit murder?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'thanks.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'next topic'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'acutally I am going to try to finish that video you linked earlier'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'I really want to see how this guy turns this into a third amendment violation'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not a "this is a violation of the 3rd ammendment" it's more of a "doesn't this look like a violation of the 3rd ammendment"? It's a intellectual exercise'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, the whole video is extremely interesting'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'so far he is talking about the general writ of assistance which is exactly what the fourth amendment was designed to protect us from.'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'agree to the interesting part'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'everyone should watch it'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'especially those who still think NSA's actions are proportionate or necessary'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'finished it yet?'
T3/r7/2013-12-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Emm: 'sadly i would need to hire someone to write the descriptions for me because all my creating writing skills are going to my master's thesis.'