T3/r7/2014-05-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Grissom: 'have there been any debates about political systems on this fine day?'
T3/r7/2014-05-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'political systems?'
T3/r7/2014-05-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'shooting has started in eastern ukraine'
T3/r7/2014-05-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oo, much more shooting in southwest ukraine'
T3/r7/2014-05-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bobolai: 'what did he do?'
T3/r7/2014-05-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what didn't he do'
T3/r7/2014-05-03.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'lol, Hitlery Clinton'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'question: Is environmentalism the new fascism?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'answer: no.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're wrong :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm sorry, that should read "I disagree"'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there is an alarming trend in the UK for former public lands that generations have enjoyed to be taken over by 'trusts' and public access and use restricted/banned'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'environmentalist lobbying has cause laws to come in that have ratcheted up the cost of living of millions of people, including those already struggling to afford to live'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's an authoritarian power grab'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'also a way to limit population growth'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'has nothing to do with population growth'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'add it to the list of conspiracy theories'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'well, some of those authoritarians would rather see most of us dead :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'well, no, lack of environmental control is a way to limit population grouth :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they wanted to limit population, they should ban stupid people from breeding, including environmentalists'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'there would be no need for control if people controlled themselves...'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'also interesting that the dominant conflict of interest in climate science is linked to governments (who gain power from regulations and fund most of the research)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'most people don't seem to realize that'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'damned right'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the people who think it isn't an issue, or think it's a 'conspiracy theory' fall into two groups - those who don't know anything about it, or those who it doesn't affect'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'does US have friends?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'o.O'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'like real buddies?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'hwuaijijal yes. remember israel?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'does any sovereign nation?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I don't know, Kerry seems to be trying to Unfriend Israel'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'i never understood the israel&us thing'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'Israel isn't a real friend they are mor of a foothold in the Middle East and a convient reason to start a war if/when its needed.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'the U.S. has typically showed a lot of support to Israel because they're about the only democracy in that area.  Well... at least that the boiled down, un-nuanced reason'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Since the US has not exactly been systematic in its support for democracy, you might want to conjure up an additional reason or two :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I'm just giving what seems to be the stance, or at least the most common reason proffered.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'it seems that the borders are for the "not friends"-people types'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'any country'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '- 4'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Israel is a basketcase'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd argue that Israel is a far bigger threat to peace in the middle east than Iran'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'I think it has to do with them not being a real country, and all'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'they take a bit more of an agressive tone, but that whole area is a tinder bed of politcal unrest'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'isreal is a real country...we said they were'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a country born of terrorism, stabilised through ethnic cleansing, expanded through warfare, and who continually violates it's neighbours'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's why it has such a lot in common with the USA :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'hahaah sounds like America Tiger'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'careful, you'll have the blind people whinging that you're dissing murica'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'Naw I <3 America'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'you are less then 3 america??'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nah, i don't think you do, i think you <3 the american dream'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'But I also have read enough history books to know what it takes to build a country'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'meh, I like living in America for the most part.  Though I hate living in Illinois.  And apparently I'm not alone in that.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-poll-half-of-illinois-residents-would-move-from-the-state-if-they-could-20140501,0,663132.story'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'hahahah no i don't think so '
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it's any comfort, i hate living in the UK'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'I love living in america...'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'I've been to other places and...i'll always come back here.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course, it's where you live'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'well, America is trying to catch up to the U.K., so...'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'catch up how?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but at least we fired Piers, I still hate that rat bastard'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'i sure hope not...i'd hate to have a door knob tax '
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'well, I think we've taken a liking to big brother'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I need a nanny to tell me what to do'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'of course, at this point, I'm getting most of my perception of the U.K. from Top Gear, so... I might be slighly misinformed'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think the honest difference is that in the UK we have a nanny state. We don't much like the nanny. You guys have a nanny state, and the nanny is a vicious, malevolent arsehole'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'Hahah we've only really gotten that nanny in the last 20ish years'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'same everywhere, seldeszar'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'previously our nanny was more of an advisor, but apparently people forgot that they were responsible for their own actions.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unfortunately they've been teaching people that a big brother government is a good thing, so people accept it now'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I'm just tired of peopel wanting to make everything they disagree with against the law'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Seldeszar is agreeing with that Tigernuts person again...
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're screwed, Razkin, you're outnumbered by stupid lazy feckless people who want the government to wipe their arse'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you will never change it'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'yes, which brings us back to hating Illinois'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and what's better, thanks to 'globalisation', you can't even escape it by moving'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but sorry, globalisation is fantastic because of cheap white goods'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Globalisation (the EU especially) gives me a business and the 18 ppl I employ in the UK.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't like the negative impacts globalisation has had, which apparently makes me both racist and fascist'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'it just bothers me that people don't see the connection with allowing other people to have the right to make choices with their own right to make choices'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are no downsides to globalisation at all, are there, Vanellus?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'No worse than localisation - just different.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'hehe you guys uses "s" instead of "z"'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, Seld, it's because we speak English'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'heh, I was waiting for it '
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'yeah..i speak american '
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'next well have to listen to how we drive on the wrong side of the road...'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'naw you guys killed it on the round about things'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so thanks to the EU, Vanellus gets to abuse cheap migrant labour and dodge taxes'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'clearly beneficial for him'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'possible beneficial for the people he hires'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'they're British workers - very highly qualified scientists.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so how can you guarantee that without the EU you wouldn't have those jobs?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2616288/NY-woman-finds-letter-pleading-help-hidden-Saks-shopping-bag-Chinese-prisoner-wrote-inside-slave-factory-operation.html'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Because I know my own business?!'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're not allowed to post daily mail stories, Razkin, they're racist'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'apparently this happens more than you'd think'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's a strawman argument'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'ohh'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'sorry'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I can only post Salon.com stories?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and mother jones'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'ok'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'im sure you guys are being funny but i don't know what those are '
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'the first time I read a Salon.com story, I thought it was satire'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so your scientists employment is contingent upon EU parliament contracts?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'then I realized, whoa... they're serious'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'There's a real limit to what I can discuss in a MUD. But our work is EU work, based on certain EU structures and legislation.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so you're feeding directly from the beurocracy'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'do you think your business is reflective of other businesses in the U.K. as far as benifits from globalization, etc.?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when most people say they benefit here from EU membership, actually what they mean is they benefit from the free market'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Tiger: no we're just doing real, needed science. Razkin, it's not a-typical.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it's real and needed, why would would it not happen if the EU didn't exist?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or does the sphere of science only exist in Brussels?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i.e, would the science not be needed if the EU were not to exist at all, and would the science have been needed had the EU been a purely free trade blocK?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Nobody would have got off their arse and mandated it until something went horribly wrong.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well it clearly isn't energy science because they have single handedly failed to put adequate resources into the fusion project'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'If we left the EU tomorrow I'd have ~20 scientists and support stff UK and more in Brussles looking for work.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i know they've put some money into health sciences about here'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Fusion? You mean because thewy closed Torus here? boo hoo?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'fusion research is a damn sight more important that fake environmental science they're so obsessed with'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess it depends if you actually want to -solve- the clean energy problem or not'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Energy research in general is, I'm not sure fusion would go anywhere.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rather than having 20 countries spend 20 years arguing about where the fucking reactor is going to be built and getting nothing done'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'My background is in the nuclear industry (not what I do now) so I kinda think all the rest is a bit redundant.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'I like wind turbines though.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wind turbines are a boondoggle for making corrupt people a lot of money'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'nobody seems to want those in their backyard, though.  At least here'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'would you, razkin?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'nope, but Illinois has a bunch of them not too far from where I live'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'they take up a lot of space'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'I wouldn't mind. I quite like them.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the uk they build them out to sea, which means their electric costs more than double that of gas, and to top it off, they give the contracts to foreign companies and pay people here to be out of work'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'yeah, but people still seem to get riled up over them.  Again, that may just be the area that I live in'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Mmm I have some about 500m away - not... out at sea?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's pretty universal, Razkin'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'In fact, I couldn't really live farther from the sea.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'onshore windfarms are about as popular as a fart in a lift'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'That's true, though I've never really understood it myself.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are some on some of UK's hill ranges, and farmers stick some smaller ones up where they can to try and make ends meet after being ripped off by the supermarket oligarchs'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'it seems that a lot of people don't like the look, plus, they're physical foot print isn't exactly small'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bird watchers aren't fond either, razkin, or anyone who is poor enough to struggle with fuel bills'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'I'm a keen birdwatcher (hence the name). I don't mind.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but rich enough to not worry about the bills..'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'I prefer nuclear. But I don't mind our wind turbnes - 5 of them just... humming away.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'Actually, that is the one thing that's interesting about Illinois, 75% of our power comes from nuclear, which is the opposite of most of the rest of the U.S., and world'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is that why you glow in the dark, Razkin?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'hey, it makes reading at night easier'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'and I get cool super powers, or so I've been told.  They haven't shown up yet'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'My newspaer of choice says...'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are plenty of issues at why people hate the EU here, but most of them are exacerbating by terrible government policy on housing and the economy'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'heh... you don't want to know, really.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally it's the democratic deficit, the media here however fixates on migration'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'They all do, true. My paper is as left s you get, but even it fixates on labour costs and migration.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Is a weird british bugbear'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because people are struggling with living costs already'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Migration doesn't affect that hgely.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it puts extra pressure on and gives people something to blame other than the true culprit - 40 years of spastic government'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'If we just got rid of the monarchy and redistributed its wealth for example - that'd be a better start.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what wealth?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'It's massive land incomes, all the stored shit they keep. Lots of good scrap metal there, too.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Its not it's'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only wealth the monarchy has is the crown estate, and you can't redistribute that without selling it to another monarch or oligarch or tyrant'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which leaves you in the same mess on a different day. Also it just isn't a significant amount of money these days'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'sorry, you're talking about something I don't know much about.  But would that fix anything, or would it just 'feel good'.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'estates. And all that income could be far better directed.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and also, why the monarchy? they're irrelevent, they have no power'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the monarchy is again, not the problem, it's just an emblem people can be duped into blaming'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Principles. I happen to think the idea someone can have fealty because of birth is... a bit medieval?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how is it any different being forced to swear fealty to a country's government instead?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'But I also think parliamentary democracy has been a short-lived and reasonably failed experiment.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'trouble is, the public is a bunch of jellyfish - a proper democratic republic requires people to be forever vigilante against the threat of government taking more power and control than they were originally given. Look what's happened to the US as an example - it's basically a federal corporate fascist dictatorship'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'think Razkin got lost in the detail'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: '?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'no, my wife came in and started talking to me.  I get distracted pretty easily :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'think of UK as being like Illinois, but crappier and without having had Wayne's WOorld'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'this is a very sad state, with poor employment.  And the closer you get to Chicago, the more corruption.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'unfortunately, if I walk out to the road north of me, I can see Chicago'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Could be worse, you could live in Detroit.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and of course, Chicago has laws that only cops and criminals have guns, and quite commonly they're the same person'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'yeah, Detroit is a very sad situation'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Detroit will get better :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but Michigan as a whole is still fairing better than Illinois'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Well, true, but really it can't get any worse so it has to get better.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'in fact, I think the only state that has a worse economy is California'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Well, true, but really it can't get any worse so it has to get better.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'of course, Illinois technically has East St. Louise, and that's not exactly a pretty place'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Sorry, ..anyway I think Detroit and Illinois were considered two of the most corrupt states.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but yeah, Detroit makes me sad.  Though if I ever get brave, I want to go to the Detroit Art Museum'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'on what basis or metrice established that I don't know though'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'mertrics*'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'lol nm you get it =P'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'well, our governors don't retire, they get incarcerated'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'we sell drivers licenses'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'you're not getting a construction contract in Chicago unless you're related to someone'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Well, I lived in Belleville for a time...and in that time east st. louis was the murder capital so..'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i got moved on by the fuzz last night for being black without due care and attention'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Then I think Gary took over as the murder capital which shockingly enough is basically just a chicago slum.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'I've often said I wished Indiana would just annex Lake county to Illinois.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'i've been through Gary, I don't recommend it'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'what do you mean 'moved on'?'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Modi: 'lake county, it sounds nice'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'That's sad, Tiger.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'A lot of people blamed East St. Louis for being the way it was because it is predominantly black but truthfully, the state and county let it happen'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Krynal: 'Industry shut down forced it down the path of neglect.'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'moved on, razkin: "Pack up your things and leave the area or you'll be fined"'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'our laws are penned so vaguely that the police are basically a law unto themselves'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which differs from US police, who have a constitution government their actions that they swear to uphold, but then don't because the federal government tells them they don't have to'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'governs their actions, even'
T3/r7/2014-05-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'hrm'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a bit rich that Obama calls people complaining about the TPP 'conspiracy theorists' when he is keeping all the details secret even from the American government'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nothing to worry about, he doesn't lie: If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thanks obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'the snow stopped, but it's still only +1C outside :('
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'must be global warming. Thanks Obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'throw away your car and live off dust, give all your money to corporations, that'll solve it'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'Australia is considering allowing health insurance companies to charge extra OR charge less for healthy customers (ie. under a certain BMI, non-smoker, non-drinker)... Thoughts?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'defeats the object of health insurance, no?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'though i come from a country where you pay towards healthcare according to your income and where everyone's healthcare sucks'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'the idea is that those that are obese, smokers, etc. are far more at risk to have issues'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not the point of insurance tough, Barahir'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the idea of insurance is the you spread the risk over the healthy people'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'technically a single-payer government health insurance is the ultimate insurance because the risk is shared over the entire population'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'True, but there gets a point where the healthy people say "wait a minute, I take care of myself.. I spend money on healthy food, a gym membership. Why am I supporting these fast food guzzling, good for nothing slobs?"'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'this is private health cover - not governement'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it sounds very much like profiteering. At this point, what's the point of having health insurance?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'but the government still doesn't permit the insurance company to charge people who are obese or have obvious health issues more'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'where do you draw the line. Do you allow health insurance companies to do genetic testing on customers to see what they're predisposed to?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'that would be taking it very far..'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vilmer: 'health insurance lets hospitals get away with charging ridulous fee's for every little thing'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so where's the line, barahir?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'I hear what you're saying Tiger.. but theres still 2 trains of thought I have.. Firstly, the insurance companies are private businesses in it to make money. They should have a right to charge higher risk clients more accordingly.'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't have to charge higher risk clients more in order to make money, the idea is they charge everyone more to cover the extra costs'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'secondly - we allow car insurers to charge male drivers more as they're deemed less at risk of having an accident... isn't that just as discriminatory as this?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, it is, and the same principle holds true'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'so they should charge the lower risk people more?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'the problem with that is the fit and healthy people don't want to subsidise the fatasses... so they might lose a lot of business from people not buying insurance as they deem themselves healthy enough to be low risk'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'My -opinion- is that if insurance is mandatory, there should be a maximum multiplier between the top and bottom'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'thats bad for those that want to make money from selling health insurance'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'this health insurance isn't mandatory'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'car insurance is, and health insurance is mandatory in some jurisdictions (which is why i'm extrapolating to a general principle)'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'its not compulsory in this country'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well then all they'll do in your country is price unhealthy people out of the market which will put massive strain on whatever government or charity care you have, or failing that, cause a spike in death rate and suffering'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Barahir: 'or it could prompt a lot of people to get healthy enough for their health premiums to drop?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't think you understand corporate insurance'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if people get healthy such that premiums would drop, then premiums for everyone will rise to maintain profit margins'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '34 closed, 6 to go in the Texas Abortion Clinic Massacre'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jopari: 'they're closing down the clinics?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes sir'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'MSNBC (Chris Matthews): You're a racist if you oppose raising the minimum wage'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'hahah that was always offensive to men...especially being a black guy'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'well i'm half black/half native american.'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'i despise jesse jackson and al sharpton, so that makes me a racist?'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I hate the marathon, I'm a racist too'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: '(and i'm against rasing the min wage also)'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): *Yay!*  Go Dispel Majic!!!  Tigernuts cheers her on.
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): *Yay!*  Go Seldeszar!!!  Tigernuts cheers him on.
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm a black transgender lesbian, so no, you're racist because you're only half black'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as it goes, i'm all for raising the minimum wage in the UK, but our circumstances are hugely different here'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the rumours are that despite losing the senate in 2014, Obama will press ahead with bankrupting the US energy sector with global bullshit.uhh..warming legislation via executive orders, and is also planning to steal large swathes of state and county land for similar reasons'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we're ok, Maggie slaughtered our coal industry in the 1980s, then successive governments proceeded to piss away all the money from North Sea oil and gas and now we're left short on energy and subject to similar bullshit EU laws that prevent us making cheap energy'
T3/r7/2014-05-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'how interesting.  The Soviets built and activated a Doomsday Device in 1984 and it's still online.  Life in the USA could literally end tomorrow.'
T3/r7/2014-05-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'perhaps Perimeter (that's the name) could explain our border security situation.  Illegal immigration isn't a problem, it's a defense strategy.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'never fails to amuse me how green evironmentalist extremists push us all into short sited policies that end up costing all of us money, especially the poor'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oklahoma taxes solar panels/small wind turbines in microgeneration http://www.weather.com/news/science/environment/oklahoma-alternative-energy-taxes-20140423'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Its amusing that everyone thinks Prius cars are green. And eating local food is greener. And.. yeah.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and of course, california, having seen gas tax revenue plummet because of the push for people to buy economical cars, is now looking to tax cars per mile'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Prius owners should be gassed'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Taxing per mile might actually help with the environment.. Hmm.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sorry, that was a bit democrat, i meant to say "Prius owners should be taught the error  of their ways"'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how do you figure that?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'People will drive less, meaning we will use less gas and have less emissions going into the environment.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what makes you think people will drive less?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'If its taxxed per mile? People will be aware and make less.. excess trips, lets say.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'do you want to know what will actually happen?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Or they will use alternate forms of transportation.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Its similar to what America's recession did for driving/environmental issues.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what will actually happen is that initially people will drive a little less, but the drop will be small because ultimately most people drive because they need to. Ultimately the price of everything will increase to cover any extra cost'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but as usual, the people worst hit will be the poor'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I doubt they'll exempt transportation of goods, so we'll also get to pay more for commodities'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yup'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'True. But if the prices go up, there will be less drivers on the roads. Less pollution, etc. Efficiency just makes our environment crap.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't have an ideological objection to being charged per mile, provided it was done via odometer readings and not via gps, but the fact of the matter is that it's a tax-raising power, not an environmental issue, and anyone claiming otherwise is deluding themselves'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I'm not convinced it'll make people drive less, I mean, that's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but doesn't always translate to the real world'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Its both. It will help the environment. Of course, its not the smartest way to do such.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I think it's more likely that we'll see about what happened when the price of gas skyrocketed, which is that people bitched for a while and then went right back to doing what they had been.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it will barely affect the environment'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Razkin, when the American recession started? People drove a lot less. We still drive, but excess trips to theme parks and etc are cut.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'yeah, gas here is well over 4 dollars, a few years ago, people went into fits of rage when it got near that'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'So they keep driving, yes, but less. And that adds up.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want to help the environment, champion population reduction, champion banning of chinese imports, champion huge taxation on gadgets/mobile phones'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I haven't seen a drastic reduction except among the quite poor, who don't make up a high percentage of miles driven anyway.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I wonder how that affected the funding of the national parks'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, people have to drive to work'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people have to drive to get groceries'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'and, did people drive less , or did they just not go on vacations?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Both.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Bought less, consumed less, didnt waste gas like they may have before. They cut down because cost went up.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: '#of miles driven is down by 2-3% from 2007-2008 peaks'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: '#of people is up, of course'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: '2-3% is not really drastic, though'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'No, but it does help.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it might 'help', but charging per mile would cause considerable pain for the gain you'd get'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and this is with a near-doubling of gas prices'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'gas is near enough $9 a gallon here, people still have to drive'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'there were similar reductions following the 73 and 79 oil crises, but then the upward trend resumed relatively quickly'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'isn't a lot of that from taxes, though, Tiger?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Their logic? It'd make people stop driving except where necessary. Which sucks, and is stupid. But it would help a bit.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, razkin, about 80% of it is tax'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'it won't make people stop driving except where necessary, heh'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Where I live, and for pretty much all the people I know, it has. We walk or ride bikes, we don't drive unless we have to.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'of course, one thing that would really help the environment is putting more funding into public transport. where I am now, for example, there's an airport about 20 miles away, a train station 60 miles away, and the nearest greyhound stop is 60 miles away as well. I couldn't go anywhere without driving even if I wanted to'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'that's the problem with the suburbs :D'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'nods, if you live in a city it's possible. it's also frequently less obnoxious due to congestion'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, that's what it boils down to - city rules being imposed on rural areas'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Majic, but the issue is, then that will pull drivers off the roads which makes more people want to drive cause, less traffic!'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'this isn't a suburb, if it were a suburb of some city we might have a train stop, it's a little town'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'huh fi? '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Cities are more green then rural areas.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'If the US were to bring its recycling rates to Japanese levels, that would probably help more than any gas tax you can conjure up'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'ahh, well, still, in the suburbs, public transportation is inconvenient for a lot of people, so they seem to opt for driving'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'also full Agenda 21 implementation would .. help ..'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'fuck agenda 21 to hell'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Tinada, that too. Majic, if there's a busy freeway always slow, adding a train will reduce congestion meaning more people will be willing to drive and take that freeway.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tinada crosses his arms and nods slowly and sagely to Tigernuts.
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'yes fi, but it won't result in a net *increase* in people on the freeway'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Fiain probably doesn't even know what it is'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and if we make the train cheap enough, it'll still get utilized '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'If you really want to help the environment, you could try getting the green movement to focus less on co2 and more on important things :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at Tinada.
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'So more people travel, and there are more emmisions.. Its just efficiency, everyone thinks it'll help our environment but it doesnt with rebound and all.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I'm limiting my consumption of all sorts of non-book things, although I don't claim to have particularly pure motives'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'And Tiger, I do know what that is. ^.^'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I'm at a complete loss as to how it's going to cause more emissions. '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'you seem to act like it's going to result in the same number of people on the roads and more people on the trains as well'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'but most people are travelling because they need to go to work or to the store, not just for fun.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'meh, they'll just go out to eat less, which won't matter, because that's a pretty small industry'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'It will.. Ok, lets say you want to take a trip. The road is always congested though, so you don't take the trip often. Now, lets say a train is built. The road is now less congested and so you can take the trip more often hlbecause its more convienient.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'This is more for those drivers not going to work, or such, however, so for trips and all. I know that it wont change workers and errand sorts of trips.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'or you will take the train instead because it's as cheap as driving and you can text without risking your life or others'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'People will still drive, however.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'of course they will, but the goal is reduction, not elimination'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'if you put a tax high enough to genuinely dissuade the people who have money, you'll make it impossible for anyone else to get to work'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'this kind of reminds me of the whole cigarette tax thing'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'as tinada mentioned earlier, there's been roughly a 2-3% reduction in miles driven, with a doubling of gas prices. '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'if we increased them further, maybe we would decrease by 2% more, while again increasing the price of commodities such as food'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'nods, the cigarette tax seems to have fueled a minor decrease in smoking and a major increase in people smuggling cigarettes :p'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'I never said what their plan is, is smart. But the logic is that when things become more efficient and convienient, people will use them more, enough to more than make up for any savings. So they think to make it less convienient.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what is it for, Fiain, what are you trying to achieve?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'What were you trying to achieve bringing it up? This is debate, and I do find it interesting to hear other opinions. ^.^'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I understand their logic, I just don't believe that it's going to result in a net increase in consumption.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I still think it's hard to make an accurate prediction on this type of thing, especially since i"m hesitant to give the government another way to tax people'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'government rarely removes ways to tax people'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'nods, especially when you're not taxing something where most of it is a luxury'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that is a question in itself, i brought it up to try and demask green policies for what they are: either short sighted and stupid, or simply tax raising powers with a sugar coating of trendiness'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'That, I agree with. It's not going to help very much because of America's mindset.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Tiger, not all 'green' policies are that. And should we just stop trying to make 'green' policies period, if that's all they are? ^.^'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for large part, we should stop them, yes'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'some policies I think are great, the HOV lanes to encourage car-pooling etc.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only green policy in the UK i can think of that was helpful was the subsidies to home solar and wind power generation, but not for the reasons given. Government introduced it because of dumbarse EU targets they'd signed up to. I think it was good because it diversified and localised power generation'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I think that's a great policy too.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Giving 'green' cars access to the HOV lane was a bad idea, I think.. But the original idea was a good one, too.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'some more local policy changes have been the removal of restrictions on stupid shit that should never have been restricted in the first place'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'for example, in the name of 'green', someone I know managed to get her town to rescind their (idiotic) ban on clotheslines.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'more towns should (in the name of 'green' or otherwise, I don't friggin' care) quit trying to make people have lawns instead of vegetable gardens'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'That.. wait, seriously, there was a ban on clotheslines?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'yep'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'I've seen towns that won't let you collect rainwater'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts nods at Razkin.
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'yep, some states won't let you collect rainwater'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Well, locally grown food can actually end up being more expensive then just buying food at the supermarket. Isnt that because rainwater can be polluted?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'eh?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'no, it's because they have chronic water shortages'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'from run-off, sure, but usually it's the water table, etc.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'it can end up being more expensive in a $ sense, but I doubt in an environmental sense'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but, people can collect basically a barrel of water, and use it for other uses, typically with a small impact on the water table'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but you can't tax it'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'run off chemicals are almost always from industrial farming, not from gardens'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'food at the supermarket has usually had to be shipped from the field to a processing center, then a distribution center, then to the supermarket, and then the consumer had to drive to the supermarket to get it'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'right'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'though places like golf courses can cause huge problems, but still'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Local grown, on a little scale, isnt too bad on an environmental scale. Local grown food on a farm wise scale can be worse for the environment.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'I'm discussing people's backyard gardens :p'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'industrial farming, you know, the type of farming pushed by the EPA while they close down all the mom & pop family farms, just like they did in the UK over the last 30 years'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'but either way, rainwater isn't usually potable, so people would use it for gardening, maybe toilet water, etc.  Instead of using processed water'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'right'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Well, a lot of times its cheaper to grow food somewhere else then grow it locally, Tiger. Just from climate differences. Not saying its good, but that can be true.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'cheaper, yes, but you still have to use the gas to ship it in, and if you're growing on a large scale to run the ag machinery, etc'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'rather than using people's labor to weed their own veggie garden instead of mowing their lawn '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Fiain, why would you legislate to force people to buy centrally rather than allow them to grow food gardens in their yard if they want to?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'I agree for that. It can save a bit- I have my own garden. But I still, most of the time, need to go buy the food at the store and it does cost money.. But lawns are just as bad.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it sounds like something out of communist RUssia'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'oh, it won't eliminate your need to buy food'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'heh'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Tiger, I was commenting off of your comment of industrial farming and mom and pop farms. Not Majic's gardens. :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people used to have family farms to supplement their living'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't make them inefficient'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(or efficient)'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: '(efficiency is half the reason the environment is like it is :P)'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps it'd be more accurate to say that family farmers had jobs to subsidise their farm'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'family farmers were certainly better custodians of the environment than industrial farms'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'arguable. they just worked on a smaller scale, so each individual one's contribution was less'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'but small family farms used to have some pretty shocking agricultural practices'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'But then all of them seperately drove to the market and the stores for supplies for said farms.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so what, Fiain?'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Less gas being used, Tiger. Which does affect the environment.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'maybe so, Fiain, but once you get rid of family farms you're denying future generations from the land'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'n the other hand, joe bob driving 15 miles to the market is a little different than shipping a semi full 1000 miles across the country. it's going to depend on how much joe bob takes and how full the semi gets as to which one is more efficient'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Majic, depends on the crops. Extreme example, sure, but if Joe Bob is growing rice in the desert, itll be cheaper to ship it in. :P'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'oh, absolutely. i don't think i said anything that implies otherwise. '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'And more green, as well.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you wanted to do the most efficient thing for the environment, Fiain, you'd exterminate all the people'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Tiger, when did I say that? ^.^'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'on the other hand, people shouldn't live in the desert in the first place, other than a few people who can be supported by dates etc.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you didn't, but if you frame things purely in their benefit for the environment, that's what you get'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and there's no reason that you *have* to eat rice, rather than things that grow locally. '
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Wanting us to reduce the damage we do isnt the same as me wanting to kill everyone, silly. :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'True, but try telling that to people who live in Arizona, that they shouldnt live in the desert. :P'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'reducing the damage isn't necessarily the only consideration either'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but i will tell you that in many things, global control, globalisation, or upward scaling is often detrimental and counter-productive to achieving the aims of good environmental stewardship, freedom liberty, prosperity etc'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'this story made me chuckle: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/baby-mamas-ambush-father-564321'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'roflmao'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'taking the trash out :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/loaded-gun-hidden-in-vagina-576432'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'vagina holster!'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '- 4'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seldeszar: 'Giving every kid a trophy even if they lost horribly is bad for the kid.'
T3/r7/2014-05-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'it leads to the kid getting crisped in a marijuana lab when trying to make hash oil.'
T3/r7/2014-05-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'Obama got elected to office through affirmative action.'
T3/r7/2014-05-08.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'a very nice, racist, comment...'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'lots of news stories in the british press this week about how the death rate for asthma is much higher than in other european countries. SO I find it amusing how the doctors are refusing to fill my prescription for the inhalers i've had for the last 28 years because on their records i haven't been to their nazi clinic this year'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ranrr: 'Do inhalers prevent death from asthma?'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'good control of asthma prevents death from asthma'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'inhaler use is a component of achieving food control'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'er, good control'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, vost'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ranrr: 'I wonder why the asthma is higher in the UK. Pollution? Poor diet? Lack of sunshine?'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'asthma isn't necessarily higher in the UK'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want to know why asthma is increased over the last 30 years, you can probably point to environmental toxins - same reason hayfever and allergies have exploded'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'modern semi-dwarf wheat = more autoimmune problems'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ranrr: 's/asthma/asthma death rate/'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ranrr: 'I definitely have less allergy since I switched to a paleo diet, so that might be part of it, tinada.'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'death rate to it in the UK is probably because of bullshit like this the NHS pulls'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'no it isn't'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there is basically a layer of beurocracy including the GPs that replaced family doctors that act as gatekeepers, barriers to stop people getting the care they need'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'same medications are used vost, the only difference is the beurocracy that controls it'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'GPs shouldn't be prescribing medications ad infinitum without seeing the patient'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unless it's a long term condition with a settled treatment plan'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'even long-term patients need to seen by the GP occasionally'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well this isn't a GP that they're demanding you see, it's a nazi asthma clinic nurse'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and they refuse to give appointments at times working people can get to'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'll offer them a compromise of an appointment with a GP if they have one in hours i can make'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as a fall back, i wonder if i can buy any in the US when i'm holidaying there in a couple of weeks'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why is that Hitlery kept Boko Haram off the terrorist list?'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'well, according to her press secretary (or whatever her title is), 'because of stuff'.'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'reality: The rebels in Libya that the US state department supported in their overthrow of Gaddafi were allied with and passed weapons to Bok o Haram'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'woopsy!'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess there is some sense in aiding and abetting the spread of al-qaida through Africa'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'does anyone else think it's a bit hypocritical for the Pope to push for wealth distribution?'
T3/r7/2014-05-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'thanks obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Civil forfeiture. Why do we allow police to confiscate personal profit and keep it without due process?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'confiscate personal PROPERTY for profit and keep it'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the (self-righteous) callous attitude of your "contributions" to prior discussions on the debate channel is likely answer enough - self-righteous callous politicians (motivated by self-righteous callous blowhards) passed those self-righteous callous laws'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's a lot of righteousness, self or otherwise'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, you often claim to be "colored" - if so, look at where you came from ethnically -- look at the callous "laws" and conditions there == perhaps those in the UK are grateful for the laws in the UK, compared to the horrid conditions in (say) Africa'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what an absurd racist diatribe'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'you want to change things for the better, then your ethics must be white as the wind-driven snow '
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'note that the color "white" is a full spectrum color'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't think bringing race into things is helpful'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is almost sure that Tigernuts once claimed to be White 
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is this Racist Zade day?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Vost claps half-heartedly for Tigernuts, clearly unimpressed.
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or is Zade's argument that bad laws should be given a pass here because some arbitrary group of people in an unrelated country are getting bad treatment from an unrelated government or group for an unrelated reason?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'if you want to discuss "bad laws", and the reasons those "bad laws" are passed by polititions, then you are looking at dirt, and that perhaps means looking at the contributions of ethnicity etcetera'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps is argument is that we should HAVE bad laws here BECAUSE African tribes sold each other into slavery hundreds of ears ago. Is that it?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'so son't censor things by playing the "oh nooooh, racism!" card'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you brought it up'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'politicans don't need race to generate duff laws, a lethal combination of stupidity and greed are more than adequate'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'too simplistic an explanation'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'sinister cunning and callous greed and other motivations'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'usually just variations on greed or stupidity'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whether callous greed or evil greed, still greed. If it's lust for power it's still greed.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'dark prejudices, intolerances, seeking of vengeance, motivated by (say) religion, ethnicity, gender preferences, etcetera'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Sarl: 'Communism not worked cause greed.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'speak proper english'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'can you give some concrete examples of such things, zade, that have happened in the last 10 years?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Zade is currently analysing whether or not God exists or not'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so the answer is no, then'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the political analysis is another deep topic (likely analysed elsewhen or elsewhere)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you can't manage that, you'll never prove or disprove the existence of god'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"whether or not a decent political system is able to exist or not"'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'able to? yes, though it's very unlikely due to entropy'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'whether God exists first, then the other whethers'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'God is irrelevent'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'a lot of bad comes from bad religions'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a lot of bad comes from lots of places'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'religion doesn't hold the monopoly on being bad. Religion is a source of control over people. Anywhere you have a source of control over people you have opportunity (and therefore, a hotbed of) abusing people'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'mostly from bad religions, bad politics, bad business, bad etcetera'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wow, most bad things come from bad things'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'until bad religions are "deprogrammed", likely difficult to deprogram "bad politics" '
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are no bad religions, only bad people'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'wrong Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'people are the cause of all problems!'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'name a bad religion, then'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Islam'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, so we're on the Islam-bashing now'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i need to turn the page'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'you asked, i answered'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'Islam is no worse than other religions'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'nonsense'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Islam is no worse a religion than atheism'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'a number of people in power use the religion to further their own agendas'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is feigning clueless as to religions'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how is that different to people in political power using their political position to further their own agendas'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or someone in authority to further their own agendas'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'er, what's your point?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a priest is just a politician from a bygone age'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'I am showing that Islam is no different to other religions'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'imo there can be both good or bad to religion'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'political regimes come and go, but some religions seem to stick around'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm saying religion is no different to any other construct that confers and imposes authority'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'clueless'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'there are many religious adherents who genuinely believe the tenets and don't attempt to use it for their own (wordly) power'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'worldly *'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'honestly i find religious people tend to be nicer '
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well Zade -is- a card carrying communist, it's only natural he'd want to purge society of all religion because it threatens the power monopoly of the party'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'like Flanders'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i do too, Redryn'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but when the "behaved" religious-moderates (indirectly) support the violent intolerant whacko religious-nutjobs'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Loony Lachdanan: 'what is this, ad hominem sunday? oh wait, it's just the debate channel.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'it's Tigernuts' favourite debate style'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you (indirectly) support the power crazed whacko politicians in your country'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is against communism
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how is that any different from YOU, Zade, supporting fanatical political nutjobs doing horrid things like bombing innocents, fermenting coupes and installing authoritarian laws?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'do you pay taxes?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'do you obey laws?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Vost grabs some popcorn and sits back to watch the show.
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): SoothSayer Anaristos starts to hear the faint sounds of a cricket chirping.
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'don't worry, no one has ever conceded on debate channel!'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'we'll be here for hours'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what are you expecting him to say?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'just wait for it'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'it's different'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you don't understand!'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're a troll!'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'no u'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(and a racist!)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'your mom's a rapist'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'for your information, Zade. Communism and Capitalism are different interpretations of the same philosophy. The people who originally advanced both  camps studied under the same person: Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel  '
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'sure, they are both interpretations on how to run a government...'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'it's not that simplistic.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'indeed, it's not that simplistic'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'Hegel had a world view which was unique and scary. He believed in the absolute State.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in the 20th century , the Communists used to disparage Capitalism  -- (maybe they din't read Hegel)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'The implementation of Communism which we are all familiar with is not the one intended by Marx. In fact, it is not really communism.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'capitalists largely implemented the communist manifesto'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Marx was violent, Marx Communism degenerates into violent bad Communism -- (by the evil fruits the evil tree is knowm)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'in an ideal communist state, workers would work not because there were compelled but because they enjoyed contributing to society.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you fold "state" and "corporate oligarchy" into one meaning and reread thecomunist manifesto, it's only point 9 that didn't get done because they found a better idea, and point 8 because robots made it irrelevent'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"there is that which seemeth good, but the ends thereof of are those of death"'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'in other words, an ideal communist state really has no government. Everyone would willingly do what was required to be done, just because they wanted society to florish.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'star trek vision of the future'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'flawed only in one way: people'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'an ideal society would  be anarchic :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i don't subscribe to the whole anarchy thing'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'except extreme brutal violence is required to bring in Communism, and those bringing in the violence maintain a violent oppressive Communism'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it'd be exactly the same as it is now just with a higher bodycount'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'well, anarchy has been given a bad name. Lack of government does not mean disorder.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'there is no way that communism shall come in peacefully, (unless everybody is dead)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it does'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'eveb God rejects Communism'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how do you have order if there is no governance?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'because each one does what has to be done, willingly. No need for a compelling force other than desire.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'except that you will HAVE compelling force'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for the same reason communism won't work, anarchy will not either'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'if it rains and your roof leaks, that's a compelling force, yes.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and if heavily armed mobs come and steal your roof, that is also a compelling force'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'indeed, that's why the basic requirement for anarchy is that the people be civilized.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well therein lies your problem. Especially in these days of opulence and laziness, people are not civilised'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some folk like to be criminals'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some folk like to exploit others'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'well, not only these days. I don't think humans have ever been civilized.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some folk like to be (cunning) abominations'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the law of nature is against communism'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'communism is contrary to and against the law of nature'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'the sad thing is that anarchy in its true form is more efficient that any other form of society. Also, more dangerous for those who are not advocates.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there comes a point where you have to be informed by your ideology not restricted by it. The world isn't perfect so compromise is needed'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, Anaristos, this is why i support the idea of a minimal central government with most functionality devolved to local, accountable bodies'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'it's hard to compromized if one is not civilized :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'there is no such thing as a minimal government. They will only be minimal for about 10 minutes after implementation.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because of laziness on behalf of the people'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'I think it's more that people haven't evolved sufficiently.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: '"civilised" - almost a joke word if here is no authority enforcing "civilised"'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'folk are "civilised" because they better be civilised "or else!"'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'enforced civilization is not civilization.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'for humans to become civilized they must transcend their current state, which is based mostly on pure animal behavior, with a little aid from their brains.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'even the civilisations of bee hives are chemically and genetically enforced'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'that's correct, Zade. But for bees, that ok because they function to the full extent of their nature. Not so humans.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'bees, and other animals, are compelled to behave a certain way because they have no way to defer responding to stimuli. Defer response is what makes the human brain unique.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'well, the primate brain :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'but...it's my nature to sit in a chair, fed and housed by the government and entertained by magical moving pictures'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): *Yay!*  Go Tinada!!!  Tigernuts cheers him on.
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'absolutely, but you are aware of the choice. In fact, each time a stimulus to do something else comes in, you hold it without response indefinitely.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'a dog has no such choice, when the certain stumulus comes in, it will respond immediately.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'woof'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'thats not strictly true'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'humans have automatic responses all the same'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'not necessarily behavioural automatic responses'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'instinct is alive and well in humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'yes, they do. But they also have the ability to supress automatic responses.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'until some become horny'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'unless you watch MSNBC, then you've probably had all of your body's ability to react replaced by dull acceptance of communism'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'only certain ones'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'dogs also have this ability'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'you see it all the time, people stand at a light waiting for it to change, suddenly someone starts to cross and the rest follow. But if one decides to look at the signal, they can stop because the light is still red. A dog can't do that.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts, what of "The Daily Show" with Jon Stewart'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'a dog can definitely do that'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'the following is instinctive, the stopping is not.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'these aren all trained responses'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'are all*'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'red is a cue to stop, stopping is the response'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't watch it, zade'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'from what i've seen the guy is a bit of an arsehole'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'likely censored in the UK'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'censored from the US, we're not paying viewers'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'If you can show that dogs and other animals can defer responding to stimuli, I will be very happy to see it :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: '"stay"?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'women train men to do that, too, Havoks'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Jon Stewart is jewish, surely you like him.  He is very popular'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'a well trained dog taught to stay, and then shown other stimuli, will arguably "defer response"'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, zade, because i like things that are popular'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tigernuts rolls his eyes at himself in disgust.
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'stay is not an automatic response, and it only does it because it has learned that either not doing it is painful, or doing it is pleasurable. It's just an application of the Pavlovian principle.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'and in fact this takes a lot ofdebate but that can be argued about human behaviour'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'sorry my client makes it hard for me to know what ive deleted'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'self regulation can is a learned trait in humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'can be/is'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: '- you mean Skinner rather than Pavlov.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'dogs can also be taught self regulation'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'you can't apply it to humans, because humans will "stay" by choice, even if you train a human to "stay" on command, they can override it any time they choose to. Whether they choose or not that's another topic.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'but a dog can "choose" to override a stay command too'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'it takes cognitive effort on the dog's part to follow commands'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'just as self regulation is a practiced trait in humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'many of the examples youve given are merely learned traits/responses in humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'sure, they can because stay is instinctual it's a learned response. For instance, they won't stay unless they recognize the situation (the person, the voice, the location, etc).'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'sorry, stay is not instinctual.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'not following'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'you can teach a dog to come when it is called, and get him killed by calling him across freeway lanes.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'you can do the same to a child, believe me'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'it responds to the command and nothing else. Like scratching an itch :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'its not though. it has been shown that it takes dogs cognitive effort to follow certain commands'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'is that what you use psychology for, to kill dogs and children, tsk'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'sure, you can do that to a child. The child has not learned about freeways. Dogs, even if they learn about freeways, will come when they are called.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'automatic responses dont require effort'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'i feel like im defending dogs' mental capacities here, but im trying to say youre not giving enough credit to dogs'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'and giving too much credit to humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade 'd teach the dog to come and not be killed on the freeway
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'dogs have a certain mental capacity but it does not include deferring stimuli.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'from what i understand, youre defining "deferring stimuli" as experiencing a stimulus and delaying a response to it'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'correct?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some dogs are not that stupid'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'humans are basically animals'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'right, let's go back to the dog. You can teach a dog never to attack a human. So now, a human comes and attacks the dog and he will just sit there, for instance. He understands it understands it is being hurt but it cannot disobey.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'youre using the example of an extremely well trained and conditioned dog'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'humans can also be conditioned like this'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Can the dog, by inaction, allow a human to be harmed?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'on the other hand, you can teach a dog to defend itself, but you have to be specific, you have  to teach it, for instance, not to defend itself against you. Otherwise, it will defend itself no matter who attacks it.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps the dog requires a better teacher, not a callous psychology student that disrespects dogs'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vanellus: 'Can the dog, except to protect humans, harm itself?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'that missed the point completely, Zade :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'you mean like the 3rd lasw of dogbatics?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'dogs are rarely that well trained/behaved precisely because they have instinctual behaviours/personalities that override certain training'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'just like humans have individual differences'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some dogs are more evolved than other dogs'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'and if the argument is that humans can experience stimuli and not respond to it, a lack of response is still a response - there can never be no response'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'just like how a dog can be trained to not respond to certain stimuli under certain conditions, which requires the same mental effort as humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'well, I have said all I am going to say. If you believe dogs cand defer response to stimuli, that is fine with me :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'i mean are you basically saying impulse control'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'I mean stimulus in the most basic sense of the word.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'impulse control isnt unique to humans or primates by any stretch, is what i am saying'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some animals are able to be self-aware'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'well stimulus as in seeing the colour red'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'or the sensation of wind on your skin'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'when a signal is processed by the dog's brain it will result in action, whatever action it requires. Be it, jumping for your throat, or wagging its tail.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'or a restraining action'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'and the same signal will get the same response each and every time.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'too simplistic'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'but thats not true'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'it wouldnt get the same response each and every time'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'some dogs are able to learn'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'its been shown a few times in studies that dogs have self regulatory processes that are similar to humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'the same signal in the human brain will demand the same response, also, but the human brain can choose not to respond.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'but thats not true either'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'ok'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'theres a dual process model in processing information'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'choosing not to respond is a response'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'so a dog can decide not to eat today because if it does, it won't have food tomorrow.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'i again go back to you not giving dogs enough credit'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'because im pretty sure a lot of wild animals learn to ration food'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'you put a bowl of food in front of the dog and tell it that this is it for the next 3 days. What  will the dog do?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'youre now introducing language comprehension though'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'ok, put the bowl of food in front of the dog, what will it do?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'if i told a chinese kid (note: i dont speak chinese) in english that what im about to give them has to last a year, they wont know what to do either'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'do you think it will consider that there  will be no more food? You think it will stop and consider that?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'do you think a chinese person under no context will consider or understand that?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'what?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'well, not a chinese person specifically, people in general'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'if you suddenly just gave a person a bowl of food and gave them no context, would they know to stop and consider that maybe tomorrow there wont be food?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'the chinese person, just as the german person, can consider that tomorrow will be a day without food, even while eating and decide to stop and save the food. It doesn't matter what language one speaks, unless the language lacks words to describe "tomorrow".'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'which is the problem the dog faces.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'but if you dont give them context, they'll probably just eat everything you give them'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'if the dog has been eating everyday, and then one day you stop, why would it know to ration?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'likewise, if a person has been eating everyday, and then one day you stop feeding them, why would they know to ration?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'if they choose not to think about the possibility that there will be no food tomorrow, that is all it is, a choice.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'dogs may be taught to ration'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'there is no choice for the dog unless a) it's not hungry or b) it is ill.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'but wild animals ration food'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'a dog that has been eating regularly isnt going to think about rationing food for the next day'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'just as a human that has been eating regularly wont think that either'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'by choice, not by limitation.'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'i argue that the "there might not be food tomorrow" thought wont even cross their mind'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) SoothSayer Anaristos: 'anyway, I have enjoyed the conversation. Stay well :)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'i fall back on my thought that you are giving too much credit to humans'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'full disclosure, i have a phd in psych and dont believe in free will'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'badly contrived psychology experiments are ridiculous, and some of the conclusions invalid'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'no doubt'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'its a crappy field'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Havoks: 'i wouldnt doubt that more than half the publications are using falsified data'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a phd is psychology. do you now have a real job? :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'texas man charged with having sex with his wife!'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'she has to want to'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'the horror'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it was consentual :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Surely if one man and one woman were involved, it is, by definition, rape?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'or perhaps I have been overexposed to feminism recently'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'she wasn't his wife...he's her teacher...'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they got married AFTER they were caught having sex'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'ran off to vegas'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in this case, the girl was 16, so irrespective of marriage, he was charged with sex with a minor'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the sex before marriage was still illegal'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no, not irrespective of marriage'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'he's not being charged with having sex with her after the marriage'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the news story states that Texas law forbids sex with a child, being defined as someone under the age of 17. Are you suggesting Yahoo news is misleading people? :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'hope sodomy wasn't involved too. that is likely illegal there too'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, "Police said there is circumstantial evidence that the two engaged in a sexual relationship prior to legal marriage.". Aren't you glad that your tax money is being used to such good effect'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not seeing the particular story you're reading, I won't comment on whether it's misleading people or you're misreading'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'he's a sleezeball who tried using marriage as a loophole to get out of the shitstorm of trouble he was about to be in'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and the girl's mother's in on it. should be prosecuting her'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'she wasn't in on it from the start, but she is an idiot for getting onboard'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what it illustrates is the need for the age of majority to be fixed at 16 for everything'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'or 18'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, this is him: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1000963/'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's the actual bloke?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yup, voice actor for kids anime'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'was the wife japanese, and does he own a tentacle monster?'
T3/r7/2014-05-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in other news, a medical marijuana user in Washington state faces 10 years in prison for growing pot'
T3/r7/2014-05-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i see all the western leaders declaring the eastern ukraine referendums illegal and invalid. they're quite happy to call a parliament dropped in as a result of a violent western-fermented coupe as legitimate (Obama even called them the 'elected representatives of the people')'
T3/r7/2014-05-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'a finer piece of hypocrisy you'll never see'
T3/r7/2014-05-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in better news, a recent poll found that only 9% of americans carry around no cash'
T3/r7/2014-05-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'it's entirely amusing that nobody in US politics actually wants to take credit for an improving economy.'
T3/r7/2014-05-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'instead of "humorous" perhaps "ominous" (and drop the "entirely", ycch)'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'If we were really rejoicing in the death of one millions mobs, it would be a triple, not a double'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'notice in a gun store window in Texas: "I like my guns like Obama likes his voters: Undocumented"'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'lol'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'can illegal imigrates vote?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yup'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'seriously?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Magish: '...wat'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the supreme court keeps striking down laws demanding photo id for voters'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'makes it difficult to check the id of voters'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'don't you have to put your name and info and stuff like that to vote?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't have to be real'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i wonder how many illegals vote ?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Magish: '...so there's nothing stopping someone from voting like 100 times with fake info?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vilmer: 'the amount of illegal immigrants that would vote is probably too small too bother cracking down on it. you could take a dump on their porch and they wouldnt even risk calling the cops'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'dunno, but i do know that studies have found voter fraud sufficiently large to play a significant impact in elections where the runners are close'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what with illegals voting, dead people voting etc'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'could happen in both sides of the major parties'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'what percentage of the population votes?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Elchanan: 'but dont forget voting fraud is a major felony in the US and all'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'varies, here in the UK turnout can be uner 50%'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'voter fraud in the UK tends to be centred around cities with large immigrant populations'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'block voting/family voting etc'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'absentees'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'how many people like obama?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Zade and Vost, and that's about it'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and all the faux-intellectual sandal wearing extremists, and the welfare classes'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then all the rich snobs and nice but dimwitted people vote republican'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i think you might have a bias?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'also what's faux'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'faux = fake'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'lol i was thinking fox'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes, i have a bias, i hate political parties'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they should be banned'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'where's the debate ? O_o'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what do you want to debate about?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'lol no me, i just watch'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'btw'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'do you like putin?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not particularly'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'your thoughts on ukraine?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he's an ex-kgb mafia boss'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'west or east?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ukraine. it's a proxy war between nato and russia and nato are the protagonists'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'best solved by giving the eastern parts autonomy'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'and autonomy is?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and also best solved by telling John Kerry to shut the fuck up'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'don't know who john kerry is'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'foreign secretary for the US'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'autonomy would mean that the eastern parts of the ukraine remain ukrainian but govern themselves to a large extent'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, by the way, vice president joe biden's son has been installed on the board of Ukraine's biggest gas company'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'O_o? so this will make putin mad?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, it just shows that it's mostly about money, not about freedom'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'so are the US just helping ukraine or just getting oil?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'neither, they have fermented unrest there since 1991 trying to 'turn it west''
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Ukraine was a basket case, it's now headed for 'failed state' status'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'oh so who has been causing all this chaos ?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all the above'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'your thoughts on odessa?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'strategically important port in the south west of ukraine?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i meant what happening in the odessa massacre '
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'also sits midway between russian east ukraine/crimea and russian east moldova'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'happened*'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oh, pro west ukrainians set fire to a building with pro russians in it'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i feel like a reporter'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well you're now to a place where there are basically squads of people, some special forces, some fascists, some thugs, some patriots, on both sides, running around killing people'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'added to the mix you've got russian special forces and american special forces'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'woah americans are in this?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'although russian special forces will be masquerading as locals, and the americans sent mercenaries, Blackwater and so on'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'America uses mercenaries in places so it can claim it doesn't have troops on the ground. There are 3000odd of them in Iraq despite there being no American military there'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are similarly large numbers of American mercenaries operating in Africa'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'what do you think of americans? '
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'define: Americans'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'north americans including canada'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're talking about a very diverse set of people'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'oh so like say define europeans?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'exactly :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'ummm'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'one thing i'll say about americans is that their view of themselves as a country is about 70 years out of date'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'what view is that?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they see themselves as the good guys, the world saviours, the world's police force'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'oh that'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'like 9 11 was 10 years ago'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'truth is they're imperialist, greedy and manipulative capitalists, and no better than anyone else, really'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but that's what happens when you let corporate and political elite take over control of all aspects of your country and run it for profit'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(personal profit)'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'profit gets in the way of everything :('
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most countries are the same, it's just the nature of things. Then things go bad, wars happen, people themselves reassert authority and it's all good again for a while, then people get complacent, then lazy and arrogant, then the bad creeps in again'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just your standard civilisation cycle'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'technology improves, but the cycle remains the same, and were on the downward slope at the moment'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'where is it going upward?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nowhere'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'arguably africa'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'how about where global warming takes notice?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so nowhere then'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i wonder when we will get clean energy'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'feel as though that won't happen'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what won't happen?'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'free self sustaining solar and wind energy'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course not'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'neither could i'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it*'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'everyone should have one when it's efficent'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'or go nuclear'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'incinerate politicians for heat'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'got no more questions to report '
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'going to focus on a goal'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'solar and wind do not constitute green energy solution, you would at the least need to add tidal, geothermal, or hydroelectric. Hydroelectric offers energy storage. Ultimately nuclear fusion is the solution. In the meantime countries should develop distributed green supplies and plug gaps with whatever locally sourced fossil fuel they can'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'yeah... solar and wind is pretty weak'
T3/r7/2014-05-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which is not what is happening here, which is why we have very high electric prices'
T3/r7/2014-05-14.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hrm, so what of EU laws stating Google must delete links to stories about people on request in certain circumstances'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'are the new blue uniforms for the u.s. army stupid ? looks too much like air force  and police to me.'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'perhaps it is about to become appropriate for army uniforms to look like police?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'nah. i doubt it'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, Turkish PM and aide beating up protestors at the scene of a mine disaster that killed 280 people'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'now there's hands-on politics for you. UK and US have paramilitary police to do that'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and why, exactly, does the department of agriculture need submachine guns with 30 round magazines, especially when they're banning citizens from owning them?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tormat: 'to protect them from the bugs that they cant kill with pesdicides!'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ambilevous: 'Don't use a cannon to kill a mosquito...use a submachine gun'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Razkin: 'part of their training involves practicing screaming 'It's coming right for us!!'.'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well those are some fantastical reasons, what are the practical reason?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'uprising preparations'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in an agricultural department?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'its all government'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'are you happy with that?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'no'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ambilevous: 'ecstatic'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what can be done about it?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'good question that is'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'at this point a change in leadership probably wont help it either'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't that depend on who the leader becomes?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'doubt it, have a feeling it runs deep'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'deep in what way?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'to many taste and see what they could gain, won't be easy to root out'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so what do you think will have to happen?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'one of two things people need to see it and unite or something noone wants to happen'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what something?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'take it back'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'given that the only similar situation we have in history to compare with is Germany 1930s, and the people there didn't see it, what hope do ou think you have?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'other than things getting so bad that it causes action'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'at this point, very little'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how bad will it need to get? armed military on the streets, mass poverty, political activists being disappeared?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'hope not but it may have to go that far, far enough where theres no doubt in peoples minds'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'a talk such as this could last a life time, many things could change  who knows for sure'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what do you think will happen -next-?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'not sure, doubt it will get better though'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'where you from?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'things started here much earlier and have been getting worse much more gently'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but things are far more tightly controlled here'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'so what do you think will happen next? or need to happen?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the UK or the US?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'for us both'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'probably islamic communism. thanks, obama'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Ambilevous laughs out loud.
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK they'll be forced to renegotiate with the EU because of anti-EU sentiment, there'll be some pointless naff breadcrumbs thrown but nothing will happen'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people will continue to get poorer, the superrich will get richer, more people will end up on welfare, the welfare seekers will be forced to do menial labour'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the US, republicans will win the elections and that will put the patriots back to sleep for a while long enough for everyone to get used to the idea of being the new slaves'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'wonder how much we are willing to take till it reaches the breaking point'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people will stick their babies in blenders rather than do anything about it'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so yes, US will be disarmed, you will become socialists'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'don't you mean islamic communists?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope, that's birmingham'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'I don't like those choices'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what choices?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what choice is it that you think you have?'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess you could commit suicide if you believe that's a choice'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'US will be disarmed, you will become socialists or islamic communists?''
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the first two of those are inevitable since they've already started'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Seltsimees Dagnir: 'islamic feminist communists if clinton gets elected'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'I disagree'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'started is not complete'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're along way down'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they started over a decade ago in the schools and churches, the next generation have been programmed to fear guns and love socialism'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'essentially they need to do nothing but wait to win now'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'agreed its bleak, and its only over when you give up'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i agree, but you need to have a realistic view of where you are'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i think the only solution for the USA is to end the union and split into two countries'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Slethrin: 'every state should be its own country imo'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'don't want to see that but if it needs to be so be it'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'one country being the conservative libertarian rural states, texas louisiana alabama utah kentucky dakotas nebraska, idaho, possibly colorao'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and all the other retarded fake liberal trendy socialist braindead zombie nations a the other'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'technically many of the states -are- their own country'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's one of the few advantages the US still has in this fight'
T3/r7/2014-05-15.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the UK doesn't have the same subdivision of geography or government architecture'
T3/r7/2014-05-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'cool, 17yr old won a primary in West Virginia'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'look out, the knives are out for Nintendo because their stupid new lame Tomodachi Life doesn't support same sex relationships'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'O_o?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'it's just a game'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that was my reaction, but you know how the communists like to make an issue out of everything vaguely race or gender related to distract everyone from the fact they're all getting financially raped'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'japan is communist?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not only is it only a game, it's a shit game designed to sexualise young children'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the criticism isn't coming from japan'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'russia?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of course not, california, where else?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'sarcasm?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'confused'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the game by nintendo, aimed at pre-teens, does not support same-sex relationships'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so the blt community is up in arms'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'never heard of this game'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'never seen it'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a nintendo version of second life aimed at pre-teens called 'Tomodachi Life''
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for the 3ds'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'gotcha'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just made me chuckle is all'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'so does gay marriage mean anything in a video game?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's a game where relationships are part of the game'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nintendo have to consider the 3/4 of the planet's population who aren't obsessed with sticking their johnson up another man's butt'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'did they refuse to put it in the game or just didn'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just didn't'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'think of it'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'probably didn't occur to them, and probably wouldn't have done because more than half their market would be offended by it'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'well you can't make a game about everything'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'it's probably a bad game anyway'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'don't play'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'heh, nss'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not much else too my fancy in today's news, aside from the chinese and americans slinging mud over commercial hacking'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'news from tv or internet?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'either'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just the usual establishment scaremongering over terrorism and global warming, growing problems because of inane immigration policies'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you sort of get immune to it after a while'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'anything important i might have missed?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i wonder if electric cars will be a thing'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'aren't they already a thing among the slightly delusional green activism community?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(and the very high end sports car community)'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i don't know, i don't drive'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well there are hybrids, which are expensive and pointless and have electric and petrol power'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sports car hybrids which use both'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'people are buying hybrids'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and some pure electric cars which are expensive, polluting, and unreliable'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hybrid cars are a marvel of marketing above all common sense'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why would someone buy a hybrid, outside of those state of the art sports hybrids?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'don't know much about cars'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i hear that hybrids are evironmentaly friendly'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'friendlyer'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'not so friendly as to scrap a functioning car to buy one'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well there are two things wrong with what you've heard, ksprite'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'firstly it creates considerable amounts more pollution to produce a hybrid or electric because of the battery technology it uses have very toxic mining, fabricating, and recycling processes'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'secondly, a hybrid (or electric) will produce more co2 than an equivalent efficient car throughout it's lifespan in most western countries'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and also what Ontuct said'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'space race?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i remember seeing news about russia's space funding thing'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what about it?'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i saw their rocket blew up, but that's pretty normal for russian rockets'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i wonder when we will go to mars'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'with acual people'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'actual'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they won't'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at least, not until there's some kind of revolutionary leap forward in energy/propulsion technology'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ksprite: 'i thought the us were planing to colonize mars with 4 people in like ten years'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i seriously doubt it'll happen, and 'colonize' is a strong word'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they were planning to send some people there to die'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that michael jackson performance was a bit creepy'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Watcher Mahon: 'wait till they bring back All the stiffs'
T3/r7/2014-05-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'wasn't very well done if you asked me, they'd cobbled together a holographic projection and used dance moves from a bunch of other songs, so it looked like he was lipsyncing to a different song'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that can't be good news, a supreme court judge has just destroyed the fourth ammendment'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://tinyurl.com/o9wcz3x'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'so, for instance that if the police see a 4 year old playing with a gun in a house, that they should have to get a search warrant before entering?'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Swalec: 'gosh that was ungrammatical -- you think, that they should -- otherwise it's an attack on the constitution?'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's a retarded example, swalec'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but do carry on :-)'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in your example a crime has potentially been committed, and even so the responsible thing would be to knock at the door. Had you read the link provided, the example was a woman who would not allow the police to come in and search her premises, no crime had been committed. The whole drive of the concern and the ruling is that it creates a grey area where police can use it as an excuse to enter -any- premise and search/conviscate without the need of a warrant, or the need for pursuit'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in legal circles it's called "setting a precedent"'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'perhaps impeach those bad judges (and irradicate them)'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'impeach them, kick them out of office, jail them, revoke their pensions'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Tigernuts is obviously trolling and (likely) misrepresenting the facts'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'in the Swalec example, the "potential crime" committed is that somebody was a "peeping tom" -- the immoral crime that Tigernuts committed was jumping to the inflammatory wrong conclusion that a potential crime was committed - perhaps the child was playing with a toy gun or harmless replica'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'a child playing with a harmless fully-unloaded actual gun is being taught to exercise 2nd ammendment rights  - perhaps the close the shades on the windows so as to not alarm the "peeping Tom" politically-correct-incorrect mental retards'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'next, the mental-retard judges may be ruling that (liar) police may search-without-warrant the premises of actors because they saw the actor doing something wrong in a film shown in theatres'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'but the alternative explanation is: Tigernuts was trolling and misrepresenting and or withholding the facts'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade starts to hear the faint sounds of a cricket chirping.
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'seriously, those bad supreme-court judges require to be heavily censured and removed from office'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'the "bad" part is debatable though'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Zade is not looking at any obscure links that Tigernuts the troll posts
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'Druzil was far more informative than Tigernuts'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think i've found something that explains the existence and behaviour of Zade:'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.ctvnews.ca/feds-eyeing-online-forums-to-correct-misinformation-1.515222'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'so zade is being paid to play?'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he plays?'
T3/r7/2014-05-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'in Rhode Island, a middle school is canceling its honors night event because it's too exclusive.'
T3/r7/2014-05-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Omphalos: 'jerry'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) [Outlaw] Drakoth: '"More technological firepower went into the Old Spice shavers & trimmers than the space craft that landed on the moon. Why? Because keeping your head and face hair trimmed is more important than landing on some stupid rock that doesnt even have a swim-up bar, or a pool, or mini cheeseburgers, or recliners. "'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) [Outlaw] Drakoth: 'who writes this shit..'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tyler: 'pls tell me its satirists'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) [Outlaw] Drakoth: 'its straight off of Braun's website, their advertising to get you to buy'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'badly confabulated roleplay fiction (aka geek bullcrap) spoils the enjoyment of science-based folk - hire a professional - some fiction is best left unsaid by amateurs'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'I take it you were disappointed by the new Godzilla movie?'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'likely unaware of any movie until dumped in the discount bins'
T3/r7/2014-05-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'though the previews of some (or a lot of) new movies these days look like fraudulent deception (when the actual movie is viewed)'
T3/r7/2014-05-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'safe serious cheap addiction?'
T3/r7/2014-05-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Really R. Bigman: 'Getting Lasher to cluck like a chicken... What are the chances?? Debate this'
T3/r7/2014-05-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) [Outlaw] Drakoth: 'wedding, chicken dance, clucking.'
T3/r7/2014-05-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'amazon is the worst fucking company in america'
T3/r7/2014-05-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Not Guilty Kojiro: 'they destroy small businesses and ruin our artisans'
T3/r7/2014-05-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Zade: 'small businesses are also crooks'
T3/r7/2014-05-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'American's perceptions on wealth are interesting.  For example, the American ideal distribution of wealth is roughly an equitable division between 20% groups, with the bottom 40% having relatively less and the top 20% having relatively more.  What they think is actual distribution has the top 20% having about half the wealth, with the bottom 80% having progressively smaller chunks.  However, how wealth is distributed in reality shows that the top 1% have more wealth than what we think is ideal for the top , and that the top 20% has around 80% of the wealth.'
T3/r7/2014-05-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Really R. Bigman: 'corporate lockdown is a mother'
T3/r7/2014-05-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Really R. Bigman: 'AND WE CAN'T LET BEN RICHARDS WIN IN "RUNNING MAN"'
T3/r7/2014-05-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) 2/3 Flying VampireDude: 'which heaven did mary ascend to? '
T3/r7/2014-05-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'last I looked she was headed for tao-Ceti'
T3/r7/2014-05-29.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'sorry, that would be tau-Ceti'
T3/r7/2014-05-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'hm. 1."Contagion"&"Outbreak", 2."Tom&Jerry"&"Kung Fu Hustle", 3."I am Sam"&"Green mile" - all about suffering and great pain. The 1st is so exciting, 2nd is amusing, 3rd is .. you know. any thoughts?'
T3/r7/2014-05-31.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'pain is art.. we need pain. any kind..'