T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'The deficit this year as a % of the US economy is down to 2.8%.....down from 9.8% in 2009....the economy is growing at a nice clip.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'I doubt it will continue though, since more republicans are being elected, and republicans of late are mostly closet spenders, and deficits go up during their control.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'The gas tax needs to go up......1 cent per year for the next 10 years.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fanil: 'in which country?'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'the US, we have a really low federal gas tax, and the fund that pays for roads and bridges is broke.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fanil: 'the fund whould be fine if Obama would quit spending maney we don't have.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'no, the gas tax funds roads and transportation infrastructure only.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'the president has no control over how surplus funds were spent.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'but now highway funding via the transportation bill outspends the amount of money that is raised each year from the federal gas tax.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'which means there are over 10,000 bridges in the US that are old and falling apart.....'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'states barely have enough money from the gas taxes to cover 'patching' those bridges.....and at least 500 of them need to be replaced before accidents occur.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fanil: 'so why don't the states that need it increase thier gas tax instead os increasing it for the whole country?'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'Because state gas taxes pay for new projects, the federal gas tax is used to maintain bridges and the national road system.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'state gas taxes also pay for the state roads.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'each state gets a block grant from the federal gas tax fund to maintain federal roads and bridges based on population growth and use of the federal roads.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'the federal gas tax hasnt been raised in a very long time.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'if it was tied to inflation it would be at least 10 cents higher than it is now.'
T3/r7/2014-11-01.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'ouch, in 1976, Apple cofounder ron wayne sold his 10% share of the company back to Apple for $800.....today that share would be worth $60 billion.'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bleh, another weekend without nuclear war starting. Boring!'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'be happy with ebola Tiggy :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ebola sucks'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all ebola does is wipe out a few poor black folks who didn't deserve it. What you want is a nice set of nuclear strikes to destroy vast swathes of bottom and top feeders, like the entire population of London and Washington DC'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(and the entire middle east, israel, and any other large population centres)'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hands up who didn't know Tim Cook was gay'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'apple products have been pretty suspect for a decade'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'It would take all 139 million working Americans working non-stop for 45 years just to cover their government's current unfunded liabilities'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'equates to 6.25 billion man-years of work'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ooh, america votes this week'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'lol, 6 police turned up to arrest a 90yr old man and his volunteers for feeding the homeless'
T3/r7/2014-11-02.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Murica!"'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'incoming head of GCHQ (UK) went on a news discussion show last night and said that Facebook and Google were to blame for Islamic terrorism, and Google and Apple encrypting their data as standard was playing into their hands. The authorities must have the power to spy on you!'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'why not use an old mud game for terrorist activities? they would never be found out lol'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'mud traffic is unencrypted and therefore subject to threat scoring like anything else'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'big metadata debate in Aust atm too Tiggy .. the man wants our data in the name of freedom .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'probably your job to tell him to fuck off and die, then'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'nah I feed em lolcats and contact my IS buddies on MUD .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they want terrorists, give them Hilary Clinton and George Soros's office number'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'given the paradigm  of terrorism being the poor mans war and how well funded IS is compared to the US .. you may have something there Tiggy :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'So it seems the last of the 3 founders of Piratebay is now in custody'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'they were all sentenced to a year in prison a while back'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'well, for Piratebay, at least.  One of them got like 3 or 4 years for other hacking, IIRC.'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'thank god the servers are safe'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'where would i get a free copy of zmud then?'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'lol jk'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fanil: 'zmud 3.62 IS free'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Mael: 'from zuggsoft, it's free for 30 days :p'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'i need more than 30 days'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fanil: 'zmud 3.62 IS free. forever. Zugg released it to public domain.'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Neji was arrested by boarder police in Thailand, and Sweden <-> Thailand has no extradition treaty. So let's see what happens.'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'Neij*'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'Pretty sure they're turning him over'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'They even took a big photo op with a bunch of officials and stuff to say "Hey look, we caught him!"'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'Don't see why they'd do that if they weren't gonna co-operate with prosecutors'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'however he passed over the border between Laos and Thailand 27 times this the warrant for his arrest was sent to Interpol'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'idiot'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'err, since the*'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'also i got the last verion of vmud the 7.21'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'zmud*'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'zmud don't have no gmcp though'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'He's got a resort house on an island in Thailand.  'tis why he was going there so much'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'he needs to stay there and i mean to say idiots as in the border guards'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'ah, gotcha'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'So like, is it a crime to evade arrest?'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'As in, will his sentence now be longer than the original 1 year?'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'in Sweden it's not even a crime to escape from prison'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'so no, most likely not'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tantravect: 'in most countrys its not illegal to escape, even mexico'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'alright'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whois neij?'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'on eof the founders of Piratebay'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's generally illegal to abscond or evade law enforcement'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i wish him well, fuck the riaa'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'when they jail the bankers that half bankrupt the world and jail the corrupt politicians getting fat off our slavery, then they can deal with people for pirating their stupid fucking movies, most of which are shit anywy'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'it seems it was movie companies, not music ones, that prompted this latest attempt at his arrest'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they put out movies that weren't utter pap, and cinemas didn't charge $15 to see them, maybe people would go more often'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'maybe you mean the mpaa :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'if they ship him back to Sweden he'll spend the winter in a nice comfortable jail, and then he'll be a free man in the spring.'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'whoever'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the same people who shut down your youtube account if you have so much as 30 seconds of a copyright song or movie as part of a production, yet happily allow ISIS and other governmental propaganda'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i think movie producers are entitled to create whatever they want and charge whatever they want'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nobody said they weren't'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you seem to be upset about people enforcing their copyright'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm upset at the hypocratic and uneven way that laws are enforced'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the youtube case, it's not against the law to use clips of copyright material in many jurisdictions'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the piratebay case, i was bemoaning the fact they let peopel bankrupt thec ountry and get away with it, even rewarding them, yet chase piratebay to the ends of the earth at huge cost'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'it's interesting to see how creative the prosecutors were when trying to convict the TPB people. Normally, for the severity of the crime, they'd have closed down the investigation considering how difficult it was to tie them to the crime.'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you're pretty much in the "we'll make and bend law as we go along" camp with TPB prosecution'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'what do you mean?'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i mean using laws not used for the purpose'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'setting precedents'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'same way they get cops to harass people filming them by intimidation and the arrest them for resisting arrest'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'I see'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) ElFeneri: 'but it's always been known that it's a bad idea to mess with those that have lots of money'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how's that voting coming on?'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wp6lUUnkJw'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'copied this before watdching. enjoy:)'
T3/r7/2014-11-04.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Remember November: 'well that's it.. the major networks are calling the senate to the gop'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i doubt the GOP win in the Senate came as a shock to anyone'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'not to anyone following the pre-election polling, at least'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'dunno what the nazicrats were expecting, really'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doubt anything will change much, though i'd love to see Obola veto the "audit the fed" bill'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '(which he'll have to because the fed will tell him if he lets the fed be audited, markets will crash)'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'uk government is putting out some hilarious propaganda in light of google and apple encrypting phones by default'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Jhav: 'If you don't have anything to hide, you won't mind your friendly neighborhood government agent peeking in!'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they can fuck off'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not that it's relevent, they can access your data through apple or google very easily anyway, serverside - there's agreements in place for it, just it needs a warrant'
T3/r7/2014-11-05.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you know they just want to be lazy and have unconstrained access without a warrant'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'Randy Marsh. cool or lame?'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'More people 85 years or older voted than 25 years and under in the midterm elections'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'despite being outnumbered 7 to 1'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: 'that's kind of sad'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Madcatz: '(or happy, if you're an old person)'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bode: 'show you who to market to.'
T3/r7/2014-11-06.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bode: 'or who not to...'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people under 25yr old shouldn't vote, they're too stupid'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Exiled To Aphelion: 'you could say that for people over 25 too :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'under 25s are naive. Based on recent polls of under 25s at university we'd have post-birth abortions, mandatory retirements at 55, constant government surveillance'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'personally i'd rather nobody except me was allowed to vote'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'failing that, we really need to be looking at a written constitution that stops stupid/naive/greedy people treading on the freedoms of others, then it wouldn't matter so much that dumb people vote'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'latest news is 32 tanks, 16 howitzers, ammo trucks and troops have crossed from Russia into Eastern Ukraine'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'sock it to the fascists, Putin!'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'really that is part of russia anyhow'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty much'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the whole situation there is like watching two bullies fight over a twinky'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'expensive twinky'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'still'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'as usual, establishment powers fighting, the little people suffer'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'an equivalent situation would be russia spending billions of dollars to provoke a pro-russia revolution in Canada, with British Columbia turning around and saying "fuck that, we're declaring independence", backed with suspiciously army-like 'volunteers' from the US military'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'who's at fault?'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'quebec'
T3/r7/2014-11-07.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that's a given'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why are democrats so intent on ending immigration controls? Immigration has totally fucked over the UK, can't anyone there learn the lesson?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'they want to end controls so it's easier for the zombie apocalypse to spread.  Them zombies move so slowly as it is, they don't need bureaucracy getting in their way.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'well, 95% of americans are the result of being able to immigrate to america...they're probably trying to learn from that lesson'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well that lesson is about 300 years out of day'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'date*'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'no it isn't'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'most are only second or third generation'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the UK you've seen a population explosion of foreigners, pushing down of wages and conditions, a huge hike in living costs and a collapse of public infrastructure. All a result of, or exacerbated by immigration'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like mass immigration in the USA will hit wages and tip political balance of power. Isn't terribly green, either'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Hanslanda: 'depends on what you mean by "green"'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'england has a pop density of a bit over 1000 per square mile...the US has a pop density just under 90 per square mile...'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not exactly in anywhere near the same situation to "learn the lesson"'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'actually immigration to the US is extremely green'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's great, but the US government has also placed 90% of the US landmass beyond further human habitation, so though that -particular- aspect is down the road, the rest is nonetheless true'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'because all of those people are coming from much-less-green countries, so their existence becomes greener by coming here'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't come from much-less-green countries'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You smirk.
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the come mostly from much-more-green countries'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in terms of their own ues'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'use'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'dunno what immigrants you're talking about, but that's nowhere near true of the ones here'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rumour has it that mass immigration into the US comes from central america'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'here ,most of our immigrants are from eastern europe and the middle east'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'corporations here deliberately bring over cheap immigrant labour to reduce their wage bill. It not only suppresses wages here but keeps unemployment high'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'on top of everything else'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'had appropriate immigration controls been in force, if there were poorly paid jobs that nobody wanted, the employers would raise the renumeration until they were attracting people'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and yes, immigration here added 7mil population in 10 years, we were already way overcowded'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and then there would be unemployment because the employers would simply no longer be employers'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why would they simply no longer be employers? didn't they want to make a profit?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'that profit disappears when they raise renumeration'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'then they raise the price'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the same argument you're using is the same argument they're using to justify the use of tax payers money to subsidise global corporations paying shitty wages here, you realise'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'then they sell less, and profit still disappears'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it's an argument for a reason'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so they leave the market and someone else comes in'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'either there is a demand at a price or there isn't'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'exactly...there's demand at the price that they're charging'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'so to meet that price, they pay what they pay'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'or they pay what they pay somewhere else and you still have high unemployment'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you realise that people have run the numbers - if apple were to ensure all their chinese workers were paid the US minimum wage, it would raise the price of an iPhone by less than $5 a unit'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's not an argument that holds any water'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'apple has no chinese workers'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and they lied when they ran the numbers'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'through it's subcontractors it does'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'so all dell employees work for me because I buy dell stuff?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, but if dell has a factory dedicate to only producing your products, then they're still morally your responsibility'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the same way that clothing chains are morally responsible for not using sweatshop labour when they contract out manufacuring'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd like to see Apple manufacture iphones in the US'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I wouldn't'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but mostly i'd like proper border controls and a points-based approach to immigration to stop the movement of unskilled labour and help reduce the country's population'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I like cheap unskilled labor :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because you're a tyrant'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'unskilled labor isn't a threat to skilled people'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not true'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'sure it is'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they might not be competing for employment, but they're competing for resources'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I don't compete for resources, I pay for them'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the UK you compete for resources, whether that's somewhere to live, access to services, etc'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and cheap unskilled labor can't pay as much for resources as I can'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they can here'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they will in the US before much longer if you follow the same model'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'then your definition of cheap immigrant labor is wrong'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it isn't'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your understanding of the UK's tax/welfare system is the issue'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'tax money subsidises cheap labour'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that tax money comes mostly from skilled labour'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the net result is that people on unskilled low paid jobs have similar disposable income to those half way up the income scale. added to which the absurd cost of housing and energy means you have to be in the top 20% of earners to escape the trap'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they only have "similar disposable income" because those halfway up the scale choose to dispose of more of their income than they should'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope, again, you're wrong. The way tax/welfare system works, as soon as you go up the income scale, those same welfare/rebates drop off. THose people halfway up the scale have less income because they don't have access to the same rebates/welfare as those underneath them'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'and you're full of shit with how much that is making up for'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's utterly true. below a certain amount you get your rent paid for, you get your local taxes paid'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'this is where socialism takes you'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yes, "below a certain amount"...and only rent in low-rent'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rent is high here, period, there is no low-rent'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they're not handing you $50k in disposable income'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they certainly is low-rent'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you had $50k dispoasble income you'd be in the top 20%'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it's higher than here, but it's hella lot lower than other places there'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rent a 1 bed apartment in London you're looking at $2000 a month'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'rent a 1-bed apartment in much of manhattan and you're looking at the same'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'now go rent one in bronx instead'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't care where it is, they'll give you the rent for where you live'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'again, there's high and there's low, in both countries'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the only places here which have low rent, also have no jobs'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'so you live low-rent but work somewhere high-rent...most people who work in manhattan don't live anywhere in NYC'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'happens all over the globe'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there isn't a sudden divide like NYC'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'sorry, but bullshit'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'go look it up'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just because you're wrong doesn't mean you can just pretend you're right :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '"i don't want to believe it, therefore it's bullshit"!'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there have been plenty of books written about the subject...just because you refuse to pay attention to your own shit and wanna cry poor me rather than fix yourself doesn't make you right'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the books apply to the places they're written about'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yes, like london'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the whole of the south east of the UK suffers high rental prices'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's very well documented'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Cleff: 'and btw most people who work in Manhattan live in NYC. NYC is not just Manhattan'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'high is relative'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'NYC is not just manhattan, but most commute from the tri-state area'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there is no "cheap" part of London. You have to go 200 miles west to get down to the national average in terms of housing cost'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'NJ transit's northeast corridor is full of them'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'there is cheap part of london...cheap part of london doesn't mean down to the national average, it simply means the cheap part of london'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'stop trying to compare parts of london to the rest of the U'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'stop trying to compare parts of london to the rest of the UK'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and that cheap part of london is sufficiently expensive that it excludes people living there who aren't on welfare or in the top 20%'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's a reason why London is 55% ethnic'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Cleff: 'from what I see, most people who work in Manhattan live in Brooklyn or Queens. Some are from NJ/Westchester/Suffolk, but they are 30-40% combined'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'most urban areas are...'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they were subject to the same laws the rest of us have to live under, they wouldn't actually be able to survive'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if they weren't here at all, employers would pay more to hire locally'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'uncontrolled immigration is a race to bottom, and there plenty of books about that too'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'they are subject to the same laws that you live under'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no, they're not'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the immigrants have a different welfare scale than you do? they get to carry guns? they get a magical card to hand to a traffic officer? which laws exactly don't apply to them?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they tend to work cash in hand jobs or abuse self-employment law to bypass employment tax, they live in illegal multiple-occupancy residences, bed-stacking. Terrible conditions that you wouldn't keep your dog in'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'but you're expecting everyone should have to do that, so that just makes you the shit, right?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I'm expecting that everyone has an equal opportunity to do that'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just so you can shave a few $$ off your labour bill?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'may your business go bust and your legs fall off :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you're stating that they're not subject to the same rules, but you then "back that up" by stating that you don't want to live under their conditions...sorry, but "I don't want to do that" isn't the same as "they're not subject to the same as me"'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they don't live under the same rules or the same conditions, the two are no mutually exclusive'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you haven't come up with any rules that are different...you've said that they're skirting rules...that's not the same as the rules not applying, and it's not a difference in situation between "you" and "them"'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they live in illegal accommodation, dodge taxes'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you have the same opportunities that they do'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i have the same opportunities to break the law that they do?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's reassuring'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'absolutely, it should be'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it means that everything is "fair" between you and them :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hardly'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'absolutely, and by definition'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why was this their fault when it's actually yours?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I'm not the one whining that other people are getting a leg up...do what it takes to get your own...they're willing to'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if it wasn't for your greed in wanting to make more money by not paying people properly, demanding people live in poverty so you've got more disposable income, then there wouldn't be the antaagonism between the two classes'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it hasn't gone completely unnoticed by the population at large, we have pitchforks are do intend sharpening them'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you do that...employers will get workers willing to do the work elsewhere :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the employers will be dead'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'UKers with pitchforks are what has ruined your economy as it is'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope, it was greedy shisters that sold us out with globalism'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'nobody has wanted to touch your shit since the punk days'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we're the only country with viable space-going engines that don't blow up'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You smirk.
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we invented genitics, the Internet, and modern computers'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we're falling, but the US is falling much faster'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and let's be honest here, you'll get nuked before we do'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'well, other than not having invented any of those things, you're entirely right!'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we did, and there are books abou tit'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yeah, there's also books that say that al gore invented the internet, but that's not correct eitehr'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if you want immigration, you need a flat tax regime and little/no welfare. of more benefit would be to ensure that you only allow immigration from similar economies'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Sir Tim Berners-Lee'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'yeah, he didn't invent the internet...'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'world wide web'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'which isn't the Internet...I've been on the Internet since before his invention'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'he didn't even invent hypertext which is the basis of his www'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'to many kiddies, yes, the web is "the internet"...note that you playing Aard is you using The Internet stuff which existed before his great invention...'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'how'd the election turn out for you guys?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'fine by me'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no change?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'from here it looks like some dysfuncitonal members have been replaced with other dysfunctional members in a dysfunctional mess that needs to be replaced entirely'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'didn't expect too much change this election'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well you haven't got it, neocons out, neocons in'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you still have LIndsey Graham, John McCain, Harry Reid, and John Kerry in positions of power, so you can be guaranteed that more pointless wars will continue'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'apparently a british born man (not british at all) who went to fight with ISIS in Syria blew himself up in a suicide attack. i guess we should really be sending ISIS a thankyou card'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'c'mon, Kabir was totally from Derby'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '2nd generation immigrant'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'over a year in jail for distributing pamphlets, that's harsh man'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just another example of the unplanned externalities of unrestricted immigration from dissimilar economies and cultures'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thanks to people like him, all of us have our freedoms and liberties curtailed'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'thanks to you and your unrestricted immigration'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'not that gay bashing needs immigration to happen'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'you're welcome :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs, we're quite capable of bashing our own gays'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Catalonia went to the polls in a referendum about independence that has already been quashed/ruled illegal by Spain'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: '"The American education system is inherently racist and oppresive. Students of color only ac out because they are victims of that system". What do you think of that statement?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it's a convenient excuse'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'is it worthy of $63m of tax money spent promoting it?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, I live in a school district which is mostly black and hispanic, with some good sections and some really-ghetto sections...our students who want to do well in school do well in school...you get out what you put in'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i get the impression the problems in the black community is more about poverty, culture, and lack of decent role models'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'which makes it very little different to poor white communities, or as they are in UK, "poor communities"'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'our slavery continues based on class rather than race'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'spoken like someone who doesn't understand what slavery is...'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there's a book about that'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'many of them'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'where i live we are property of the state, we are therefore slaves'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Vost laughs out loud at Tigernuts.
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'again, you clearly don't understand what slavery/property is...'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'why don't you enlighten us'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'he understands just fine, Abelinc'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'he justs "interprets" stuff to suit his own agenda'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'then he's just lying'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'everyone on the planet does that< Vost'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there are books about it'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Vost: 'see what I mean, Abelinc?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'are you aware of the concept of indentured servitude?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I don't have much problems with classifying typical schooling systems as oppressive'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'oppressive to black people?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I am aware of the concept of indentured servitude...while it is not slavery, it's certainly not fun...but it's also not something that you're under'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Whether there is any inherent racism, depends on your definition of racism. There are certainly correlations between ethnicity and educational outcomes.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I meant oppressive for human beings in general :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'do people get treated differently in the school system as a result of race?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Insofar as racial genetic differences affect educational performance, but then it's not really because of race anymore.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well you can't really bring outcomes into it'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'You can, as a sort of reality check, but you'd better be very careful with interpretations.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you might as well claim schools discriminate against stupid people'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, I'd more likely say the opposite'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'd agree with you, abe, but then so does adult life'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Again indirectly, since intelligence affects performance in schools :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I'm not sure who suffers most from typical schools.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tinada shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'in the UK, bright kids suffer worst'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'the loony left banned selection on ability, then the loony right banned streaming'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'either end...it's always easier being middle-of-the-road'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I might opine that boys suffer more than girls in Norwegian schools.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what's different about Norwegian schools?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'not much, I think'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'feminist system, like the rest of society :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'I loved the line in Mars Attacks, when the black general's about to be the ambassador to the aliens and said: But didn't I always tell you honey, if I just stayed in place and never spoke up, good things are bound to happen.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bleh'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'feminists are awesome'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'for a very peculiar value of "awesome", perhaps'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, all depends on which definition of feminism is being used'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i just find them funny'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I'm fine with first generation/wave/equal rights feminism'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'and I suppose with weak form aa'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they amuse me in the same way as many environmentalists do'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'think the common thread is hypocrisy'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'the rest is largely PC, imo'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's 95% of feminists, Tinada, imo'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'lamentably'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'heh, I was at an Eagle Scout ceremony recently, where the parents were at the podium for a bit, and when they left to return to their seats, the father walked first...after the ceremony, the grandfather verbally bitchslapped him for "leading his wife" rather than escorting her'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'grandfather was right'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Tinada looks at Tigernuts ponderingly.
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I have problems conjuring up a convincing scenario in which the grandfather's action is right.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'old-school chivalry (which of course is shunned by feminazis ;-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's about chivalry/politeness'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I was talking about the grandfather, not the father..'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'basically, your target is in a room where all of the ghoulies go during the day...when it's night, they return to their places in the graveyard'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what's your issue with it, Tinada?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'It seems counterproductive.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'counterproductive to what?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'and misplaced'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'as counterproductive as holding open a door, I guess'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'of all the people to school you on etiquette, aren't your parents probably the best placed?'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'If I see you doing something wrong it had better be seriously wrong for me to not wait until the two of us are alone before I criticize you.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'the ceremony was over'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i have some sympathy with that, Tinada, though sometimes a public dressing down reinforced it'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I have yet to see that work with adults, I think.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's because adults tend to be petulent'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}You debate: 'it wasn't like he shouted it in front of everyone in attendance, I just happened to be eating at the same table in conversation with the family'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'central to the failure of feminism is that women give birth to and nurse young and men throughout history and evolution tended to provide and protect them'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'chivaly is just an extension of that into culture'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'feminists, ultimately, are just women-haters'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Insofar as feminism fails, it is probably because it ignores too much of reality, particularly the biological basis for sex/gender and consequent differenct preferences and choices.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'lots of what is wrong with the modern world is due to ignoring reality'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'don't see many feminists on here these days, there once was one, but was from Singapore, so couldn't really be taken seriously'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I notice a RL shortage of people who self-define as feminists, but then again I live in a country where women make more money than men, after all possible statistical adjustments.'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'also post-whatever constructivist pc reality rejection seems to have peaked'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'trouble is when you get feminists in charge of things'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and there's plenty of them in UK politics and positions of power'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hmm, 90lbs of cocaine seized from a cargo ship belonging to a company owned Mitch McConnells extended family'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not really a surprise that politicians have their hands in dubious pies'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ilthik: 'surprising its only 90 lb. you could fit much more into a cargo ship'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'most of em are on the tap. News story today showed Tony Blair being paid 41k a month by a Saudi oil company'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i do like the concept David Eddings brought up in a fantasy fiction book where an Island's governance was such that when you became president, your entire wealth was subsumed by the state. If the state made a profit, you made a profit, if the state run up debts, they were your debts'
T3/r7/2014-11-09.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i think that national governments shuld have teh same policy with ALL of their national politicians'
T3/r7/2014-11-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'recovering from the NHS claims is a virus, but with the added benefit of just about every muscle in my body acting like it's been pulled'
T3/r7/2014-11-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'woops mis'
T3/r7/2014-11-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'obama looking to regulate broadband like a utility. hrmmmm'
T3/r7/2014-11-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Ted Cruz is coming down against it and i'm wondering if he's got the wrong end of the stick, or whether it contains stuff i haven't been told'
T3/r7/2014-11-10.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps someone with more knowledge can enlighten me'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'no fair, you lot are gettin gsnow'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'looks like Mexico is descending into Anarchy'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty good excuse for Obama to invade'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'if jesus was excluded and forgotten, what would be the best way to count yesr?'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'years*'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'cant set the big bang as the starting point - it would be inaccurate, try as you may. and the number would be too big'
T3/r7/2014-11-11.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'so, what would be the worthy event to start counting years from?'
T3/r7/2014-11-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there is no best way, pick a starting point'
T3/r7/2014-11-12.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Microsoft patches a 19yr old bug in their SSL implementation, of course, if you run Windows Vista, XP or older you're pretty much fucked'
T3/r7/2014-11-13.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQzkMoEGDGE'
T3/r7/2014-11-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'look at all those racists accusing Bill Cosby of rape'
T3/r7/2014-11-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'EU is considering imposing sanctions on Israel. That'd be the day'
T3/r7/2014-11-16.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's about time someone did something about that particular terrorist state'
T3/r7/2014-11-17.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://tinyurl.com/keuunno   http://tinyurl.com/l3wokmw    I think your education system might have been usurped to be a propaganda vehicle....'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hmm, interesting food related article: http://naturalsociety.com/big-mayo-co-unilever-sues-vegan-mayonnaise-maker-market-share/'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Why does it seem that US Education is basically the blind politicans, who never taught a day, listens to blind experts, who never taught low level students and were in upper level courses while not mixing with lower level students, telling everyone else in education that they should make everyone go to college? '
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'because public school is a propaganda machine used to brainwash kids'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'That would be English, History, and possibly science classes.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'public school is to keep the children from the drugs. '
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'away*'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Inner city schools could have more drug use than the streets around the possibly.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i can't see the public school systems have anything to do with drugs'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just really bad teaching'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'I wonder what the rate for prescription drugs given to students in more affluent schools is.  That would be high drug use, ADD/ADHD medication or other medication to control their child.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'more likely they're medicating kids because the doctors want to make money, the parents are gullible, and the teachers stupid'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Tigernuts: I disagree. Public Education's issue is parents dumping their child because several of them do not have an education themselves. I have some students that they are the first in their families to graduate from high school.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'such people shouldn't be having kids'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's your root problem'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'The bigger issues it not teachers, it is the lack of parenting and students taking responsibility for their education. You get what you put into any school educationally wise.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'doesn't help when you've got politicians usurping the education system for political means of control'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ultimately you need to use culture and social propaganda to make it seriously fucking uncool to have kids'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'George Bush did that in 2001/2 when he said you are not Patriotic if you do not vote for No Child Left Behind.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps use a bit of a stick by making it a felony to not support your kids financially if you're not present'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well we all know GWB was a terrorist'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'So was Nelson Mandella.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yup'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'difference being that Mandela knew he was a terrorist'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Regan was a terrorist'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'reagan wasn't a terrorist, but he was an invader of foreign countries'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'he was good until he got shot'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Regan was a puppet of Corperate America,'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'The school system is a bit like nutrition, we're making comparisons within fundamentally sick populations, and failing to notice this :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'pretty much, though he did start off saying the right things'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Goldwater was ok.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Well, the peanut man did not have a clue what to do.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you aren't going to fix public education without dealing with a whole bunch of other stuff first'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i guess the best start is to kick the feds out of having anything to do with it'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'The school system was historically designed to limit people's development and standardize them (at least the great masses), the system is based around mechanisms which generate these effects, and we can in fact observe end products of schooling consistent with this.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Tinada: Pretty much.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'In other words, schools are working as intended, and adding more schooling/homework/whatever will make the system work even better.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so pretty much either don't send your kids to public school, or at the very least, have massive personal oversight of what they do and be prepared to undo/correct the bad shit'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'getting rid of centralised control would at least allow state-level decent people to take it over where there is the effort made'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'without that freedom you're screwed'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'feds were not confered that power under the constitution, so it should be handed back, really'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'I think that if parents could actually do some of the work their kids brought home, then students would be able to be more successful. However, most parents with low socio-economic situations were born into this and that is what they know and do not know better.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'I realize that dismantling the existing system would be..hard. My halfway proposal is to eliminate non-essential subjects, leaving you with 1-2 languages and maths until you reach senior high, and do intensive one-on-one teaching when kids are learning to read.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps you should just euthenise all the stupid people?'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'that is part of the problem Turie.  Our local school is pretty good if you are motivated.  For the unmotivated it is hard to get them to do well.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'The more interesting thing is when the Feds tagged Common Core as being a part of getting Fed Money. They basically broke the law.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'all the time left over from eliminating pointless stuff should be spent studying/training something reasonably sensible that the kids are interested in'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'basic numeracy would help'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'A high school diploma is basically a Liberal Arts Degree in College.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'Considering how amazingly little you are supposed to learn during those years, it should be hard to go wrong.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tinada: 'and a liberal arts degree is the same as a 19th century middle school exam? :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'I think that school systems should team up with companies, other school systems, and pool funding to create schools that are designed toward career ready fields.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Tinada: Pretty much.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'speaking from my own country, we just need to reintroduce grammar schools (selection on capability) make student loans inflation-linked, not for profit, and offer free tuition for degrees that actually have a use (science, engineering)'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'for you guys, you really badly need to take the politics out of our school system'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'THe US's biggest issue is that we test everyone from lowest to highest with the NAEP test. Most other countries do not do that.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'that's not an issue :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'we had no standardised yearly testing at all until quite recently'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Most people do not fully grasp Algebra till they are 20-25. We push it down 12-18 year olds throats for no purpose.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'algebra is something you start teaching in yr8-9, it's a vital part of maths and problem solving'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's pretty vital in just about any form of rational debate'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'I don't think something magically happens when you turn 20 that lets you understand algebra, I did't have too much trouble grasping it in 8th grade.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'I agree. I am talking about the more abstract concepts like imaginary numbers to student who will never use it.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'imaginary numbers are not basic algebra (not algebra at all, technicall)'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'probably not necessary for high school students not taking science'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'basic alegebra and arithmetic are used every day in normal life'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'It is mandated by Common Core and my state as a requirement.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'well common core is something you should get rid of'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'I would like to see a personal finance/business math classes.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they can't teach that, Turie, else the kids would realise that their government is perpetually bending them over the desk and taking them roughly up the butthole'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Those are things students need to know. How do you invest wisely in the stock market, commodities, and so on.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'just how to run your own personal finance would be a start'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Turie: 'Credit Card debt would be a nice eye opener.'
T3/r7/2014-11-18.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and how inflation has been manipulated more than once in order to make it appear lower'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'since the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, their gold reserves have almost entirely disappeared. Where do you think they went and why?'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'janukovich didn't leave with his hands in his pockets. and probably a few others'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope, it disappeared after that'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'there have been reports of it being stuck on american military planes and shipped out, but the central bank weren't given any information'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'at this point it looks more like some secret deal has been done, maybe a trade of gold for liquidity'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'hm. you know. how is it even possible to figure what theory might be true? i mean, internet is the worst source of any kind.'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'the absolute worst'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nogs'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'one things for certain, Ukrainians ought to be pissy about it'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-18/ukraine-admits-its-gold-gone'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'however, since they won't audit the fed, i think the USA figure is probably fiction, too'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'which is better. to drink constantly but not too much or less frequently but a LOT in those occasions. '
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'cuz ads say nothing informative..:( and i really like to drinlk'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'best for you is to drink in moderation and not frequently'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you don't listen to ads, you apply science, or failing that, common sense'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'they do the tests and claim something but i have not seen the real measurment of the damage. but people like alcohol. many people. how much damage 1.5%o will do? any idea? absolutely none.'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'do they have real racism in science? like "geology not being a real science"?'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'and vet's not being real doctors?'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'just curios. don't really care..'
T3/r7/2014-11-19.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'is it real or just fun?'
T3/r7/2014-11-20.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rizgoth: 'woohoo, WTG Alaska....voting in an independant/democrat party as governor/lt. governor, and booting out the neocon that a former big oil lobbyist'
T3/r7/2014-11-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'this channel has been too quiet recently. where is tigernuts?'
T3/r7/2014-11-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'what happens when plague and ebola have a baby?'
T3/r7/2014-11-22.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'plagola'
T3/r7/2014-11-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'ebol and plague have a baby? Gives you Kim Kardashian'
T3/r7/2014-11-23.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'UK soccer team just let us down. They should be executed for treason'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'http://www.iflscience.com/technology/journal-accepts-paper-reading-get-me-your-fucking-mailin'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'oops. full link: http://www.iflscience.com/technology/journal-accepts-paper-reading-get-me-your-fucking-mailing-list'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'and paper http://www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/home/papers/remove.pdf'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'ah, should probably point out that it's NSFW :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Gurneyhallek: 'who wants to debate you pick a topic'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'awesome paper there, Lach'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'more truthful than many I see, too'
T3/r7/2014-11-24.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Remove sanctions from Iran and Russia already. Discuss :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Gurneyhallek: 'america about to have another race war if we keep inconcent people'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Arnica: 'Yes, get rid of the innocents'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Gurneyhallek: 'rember kid have your white parents buy our bb guns or youll be shot in america'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'cops shoot unarmed black folks, black folks response: burn down and loot black businesses. Score!'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'nothing wrong with that'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'depends what you mean by "wrong"'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's pointless action that harms yourself, a bit like Israel really'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'israel should either give up the territory they stole in 1967 and accept a 2 state solution, annihilate entirely the palestinian population, or give up their own state and return it to British rule from whom they stole it via terrorism in the first place'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm sick of hearing Jews whinge about those nasty Arabs'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'or everyone to just toss out the grudge and make the whole wide world a paradise.'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'won't happen'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'In Ferguson, the problem is best solved by stop allowing your cops to get away with murder, hold them to at least the same standard as the population and quit training them to shoot first'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'it will happen. but we are not here then'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what evidence have you to suggest that it will happen'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: '"free" energy is just a few decades away. '
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Malkar: 'fusion?'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'yep. it will change everything'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it won't change that'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'they're not fighting over energy, they're fighting over some land that a dude told both seperately belonged only to them 1400 years ago'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and frankly, if you don't want Iran having nuclear technology, you really don't want the lunatics in Israel having it'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'once there is no trouble or worry of the resources, most of that crap will disappear. the dickheads will have no real power once everyone can always eat and live for "free".'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'hahahahahaha ...'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what majic said'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'nah. it will happen. there will be very little reason for being a dickhead. but its in a very far future'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'very little reason doesn't mean people won't invent reasons'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'people don't need reason to be dickheads, there are very rich and powerful people that are dickheads, they might be rich and powerful because they are dickheads or vice versa. They will not stop being dickheads if fusion comes in'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i will dress this up as nicely as i can: You're living in cloud cuckoo land'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'these people lie and cheat to rip entire countries off, they buy politicians to get laws passed to benefit them. Do you really think that free energy fits with their plan?'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'what if that dickhead meets a guy that has everything he needs and doesn't care about that dickhead's stuff? -- the dickhead stops being one.'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'nope, the dickhead will bne a dickhead to the non-dickhead'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'nope'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'perhaps the dickhead will imprison the non-dickhead, or just kill him outright'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'why'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'because he's a dickhead'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'no'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'yes'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'no'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'you have the idea that when everyone will have everything they need, dickheads will magically stop being dickheads'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'have you never met a dickhead?'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'but nothing in history reveals that to be true'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'you're talking about a sick person. not about a dickhead then'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'we're living in what would have been a paradise to people even a hundred years ago. we have unimaginable luxuries'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'what if everyone can live in this kind of luxury?'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it'll never happen'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'but it can'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'and it will happen'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'a hundred years ago a six-day workweek was routine'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'not unless you intend wiping out every megalomaniac, dickhead, and sicko in the world and then formulating a way of preventing anyone from becoming one in the future'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if that were possible we'd already have done it'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'its not possible now'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'people crapped in outhouses and read by candlelight, if they could afford books'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'we have a degree of luxury that was utterly impossible then and it hasn't stopped people from being dickheads'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'what on earth makes you believe that a further increase in luxury will stop people from being dickheads?'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i seriously doubt fusion will be allowed to be developed'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'it's been held back this long...'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'you'll still have (for example) people trying to pass laws to force others to adhere to their morals'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you still have the police state and laws that are applied unequally'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'and no matter what degree of luxury you have, you'll have people who want more. give everyone a free car and they'll want a faster free car'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'or a free airplane'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'not everyone, of course. some will be happy with what they have'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'free energy, matter transformation, printing nice stuff --- 99% problems solved. the remainind dickheads can be cured with pills'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'even if the car were free, they'd charge you to use the road, or regulate your driving to the point that it's no longer free'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you won't have access to that technology, hwuai, the dickheads will'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'why'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'because they're dickheads'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'and dickheads run the world'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'you seem to believe the proportion of dickheads in the world is much less than it really is'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'no. these 3 things together makes being dickhead a lousy perspective'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'what 3 things?'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'a hundred years ago people thought if we could get everyone food and shelter it'd solve all the problems. most people now have that, and the goalposts have shifted'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'free energy, matter transformation, printing nice stuff'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'all that would happen is the dickheads will use those technologies to subjugate everyone else'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'nope'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'yep'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'no'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'just because you want it to be so doesn't make it so'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'you have to deal with the world as it is, not as you would wish it to be'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'mkmm. this will happen. but we are not here then'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'if i were a faerie, i'd like to sprinkle faerie dust on sad people to make them happy'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'i'm not a faerie and don't have faerie dust'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'not until there's a fundamental shift in the nature of human beings to want a larger share of the pie'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'hm. if everything in aardwolf would be free, no one would play:p'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'your best bet for a decent future is to campaign to prosecute the dickheads and find ways in law to prevent dickheadism'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'even that is a lofty aspiration given that the dickheads are in charge'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'everything on aardwolf is free and there are plenty of dickheads here, proving exactly the opposite of what you're trying to prove :p'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'hm. i think too many sci-fi movies have corroded your brain, Tigernuts - there are less dickeads irl. and Majic - its free to login but the players time is not. im getting drunk and starting to think im always right... oh:p'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Dispel Majic: 'plenty of dickheads. why does someone rape? surely you don't think that this era of plenty is going to end that'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'rofl, there are plenty of dickheads irl, hwuaij, and they hold positions of power. There don't NEED to be many'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'yeah, this rape argument kills all the hope for better life. this place sucks..'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'so learn to brew :-)'
T3/r7/2014-11-25.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): .... Hwuaijijal nods.
T3/r7/2014-11-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'look oot! the brothers are rioting!'
T3/r7/2014-11-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'best english word for a feeling: when you see an elephant bouncing a ball with its ..nose. ... or when you watch at the quakecon fights on youtube. or hm.. when you see someone doing a 100x combo with tony hawk video game.'
T3/r7/2014-11-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: '...when you see something useless done in an awesomely'
T3/r7/2014-11-26.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) .... Hwuaijijal: 'done awesomely*'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Test'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'lol'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'hello sir'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Hello'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'what level are you'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'I demand a SANDWICH!'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'YES'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'NOT ENOUGH SANDWICHES IN DEBATE'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Dude, I laughed at that'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'c:'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Who plays LoL here?'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Dude, does slapping decrease healthM'
T3/r7/2014-11-27.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rhewn: 'no, its a joke dont worry'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Iulia: 'No layman is able to tell which milk is 2% fat and which is 0% fat. Discuss.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'over here1'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Neji - I seem to be the sole one arguing for the following position'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: '2% vs. 0% milkfat is manufactured that way, sure you can label milk as raw or not, but individual cartons of raw milk may be safe or unsafe and there is no way to tell which is which'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Neji - summary to be written in a bit'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: 'it is an inconsistent product'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Bertilak - huh?  How is there no way to tell?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you have a lab set up to do cultures of milk samples?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Bertilak I don't think your position is cartons don't have labelling, is it?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: 'oh there is a way to tell, but if you cultured every batch of milk for bacteria the costs would be exhorbitant'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'his position is people don't have the knowledge/care enough to read the labelling'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'this is a matter of basic logistics at production / wholesale.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if you allowed people to simply sell substandard crap and label it as substandard, they'll just make it cheap'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'alright - if you don't believe we have the ability as a government to ensure that the product in a carton is as labelled, that's a completely different issue than to whether certain variants of that product are allowed in containers.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'cover it up with nice decor, lots of extra food coloring, maybe some wax'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'looks ok on the outside'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'is gonna cause you liver and kidney failure in 10 year's time'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: 'we do have the ability, and that is called enforcing pasteurization'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'because it has low levels of mercury in it'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'see the problem yet?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: 'because pasteurized milk is a very consistently safe product'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn - if you don't think governing agencies can enforce labelling (and they do) - then you should be unsure about everything you buy already.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'aren't you suggesting people just need to slap on a label saying this is not up to health standards?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: '"slap on a label"?  could mean a very casual (hidden) label.  If that's what you mean, then no.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'whatever your requirement is'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'what's your suggestion'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Yes - requirement is clear (validated by study) unambiguous label indicating non-conformance.  The original example was a road side stand (fruit stand) that sells baked apple pies.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'validated by study?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'so now the sellers have to pay to run a study to show that their product is non conformant?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'or you mean... a study on what's a clear label'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Yes - typically most marketing requirements require validation.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: 'look... there is basically zero reason for products that do not meet minimum safety requirements to exist.  If you have a specific product in which you believe the safety requirements are overly stringent, then you go after that particular case'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Clear label.  Though I hadn't considered every non-compliant product pay cost of full study - I could see an argument along those lines."'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ok say a study says it must be in bright red words font size 12 and not covered up'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Bertilak: 'if you can't convince a lawmaker of your argument, then you get people to petition to create a ballot issue to address your claim'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and it shall say 'does not comply with _____ recommended guidelines''
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Bertilak - look - sure if we're talking about poison labelled scrumptious cookies, sure.  But we're talking about whether some poor family could make a living selling apples pies to their neighbors using apples grown on their little plot of land.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'is that what you have in mind?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'wrong, we're not talking about poor families'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'This kind of behavior is restricted in a great many U.S. states (though there has been a movement - successful)  at "cottage industry" laws.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'we're talking about mega corporations selling crappy food'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if you wish to argue about policies, you have to be prepared to look at the broad picture and effects of such policies'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'argument started somewhere ways back when I suggested regulations (U.S. at least) are killing startup business / entrepreneur opportunites.  Too many things that are common sense "ok" are regulated out of existence.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'not focus on petty minor extreme cases where probably the policy doesn't matter'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'then the issue is over-regulation, not regulation itself'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'which would of course depend on the regulations in question'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Well, if little families cannot start baking / selling food, then yes - you will only ever get food sourced by large mega corps looking to spare every ast dollar - hence why sawdust is now a common component of american cheeses.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'so be clear, what exactly is the problem you wish to address?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'small families/start ups have difficulty getting regulatory clearance?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'or is it that regulatory clearance needs to be required at all'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'to me the latter is a necessity'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn - correct - I am not arguing against regulation on principles.  Rather that existing regulations are burdensome where they need not be, typically to protect existing industry giants at the expense of competition which IMHO would produce more nutritious and desireable results.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but i can completely understand if you are saying that regulatory clearance for some stuff has too much red tape'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'so what you're looking for is carve-outs for small mum and pop sales'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I am proposing an end run on some of those regulations to put pressure on the regulatory body to not behave as if they are lobby-ists little pets.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ie if you're not selling to mass market, exempt them from requirements?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i don't agree, because general regulations serve a purpose'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if small guys are having problems, then fix the regulation process, fix the corruption, but don't just throw away the whole system'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Not just carveouts for small mom and pop operations.  For example, the raw milk issue.  Bertlak is convinced that it is across the board an undeniably poisonous product.  I can lay out why some people are proponents that they *should* have the option to buy it - and explain some of the data behind that.  But I don't think that argument has to be made.  On principle I'm opposed to restricting other human's choices when those choices are personal.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'before any product is banned, i am sure the regulatory body does a study into it.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'by "end-run" I mean that consumers have the option to support whom *they* choose as opposed to a centralized body vulnerable to corruption.  Excessive centralization of power is IMHO historically bound up with corruption.  Seems to be impossible to get away from once the power to control choices is taken away from the individual.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that's why you need checks and balances on the system'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the system though exists to protect end consumers'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if you wish to remove the system then you're exposing end consumers to a lot of risk'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Yes - and I am proposing one such check is that consumer (though Bert and others think they are dumb as stones) has final say if *consumer* so wishes.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'so you believe that if someone is stupid enough to drink mercury as a cure for coughs, they should be allowed to do so for instance?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'power resides finally in the consumer hands.  If I can't trust my neighbors to be intelligent consumers, how can I trust them to vote someone into power who isn't fully corrupt?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'if you mean someone buys MERCURY intending to use it (not too far off from standard medical practice years ago to use toxic chemicals to treat conditions), yes - an adult should be allowed to consume substances as they wish.  Unless we put a gag on everyone's mouth and have a constable oversee their meals.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i see'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'well i disagree, and think that ultimately the government should put a stop to stupidity at some point'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i have a few reasons.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'if you mean, should mercury be saleable as medicine?  marketted as such.  no.  hence why "not-compliant" labels would be necessity to protect people from things like accidentally buying raw milk.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so who is making sure that the government is smarter than the people who vote for it?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'firstly, there is a cost to society when people do stupid stuff, which causes harm to themselves. This can be seen in the form of increased burden on health care systems.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'ok - so what are your reasons for government regulation and by what manner'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'nevermind - see your writing.  will listen'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'secondly, there is so much information in today's day and age, that it's practically unfeasible and impossible for everyone to spend time educating themselves on every issue.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that's why regulatory bodies take the burden of centralizing the decision making, investigating, and studies by people who are educated and trained in those areas'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'eg i'm not a nutritionist, a chemist, doctor, etc'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i depend on the regulators to tell me if food additive XYZ is capable of being consumed'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'now in your proposal as i understand it'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the regulator will just issue non binding recommendations'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'eg food additive XYZ is unsafe and not recommended'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the producer just has to put a label saying we use XYZ and it is not recommended'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'how many people are really going to do the research? Online, the company will employ their media/marketing/propaganda divisions to tell people 'ohh, actually XYZ is ok it's just that the government is being a pussy''
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'we've done XXXX studies which show it's fine! (and studies can be bought easily)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i strongly believe many people will buy this bullshit'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and that's why I think it's necessary for regulators to step in and ban XYZ if they think it is necessary to do so'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I'm recommending we use something like Roberts rules of order.  I will response when you rest your argument.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i rest'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i dunno what those rules are anyway'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'for this, with juyst two of us, back-n-forth should work fine.  with a larger group, more structure helps prevent all out anarchy.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ok, so i'll wait til you're done.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i am going to repeat back because i am going to lose your args off my screen'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: '1st: '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: '1st: stupid stuff (even if personal) can have broader costs'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: '2nd:  complexity exceeds individual capacity to analyze every choice.  hence trust in other bodies'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: '3rd: non-binding regulations (labelling) insufficient to overcome typical corporate/customer stupidity'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'please interrupt if I mischaracterize'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i would amend that to clarify that not /every/ individual is incapable, just some significant portion of the population'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'protection of the vulnerable'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I consider these to be valid issues - not addressable by dismissal (beside being rude to dismiss)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'however, i see other factors in play that incline me to think balance of good requires differnt approach'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i mean resolution'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'agreed that point 1 is true (stupid - even personal stuff) can and does affect others'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'point 2 that complexity exceeds ability to analyze *every* decision for most (certainly for me)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'relog - see if I can get a screen that keeps history'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'anyone know how to set font color to one color only?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'color turns off all color'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'debate so I would these points'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'point 4: for complex societies, regulatory agencies and strict regulations are a focal point for regulatory capture'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that is, centralized power - inherently vulnerable to corruption and centralized economic control'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i am familiar with what regulatory capture is, no need to explain'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'cool'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'debate point 5'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'this has immediate adverse impact to individuals in terms of lost opportunities,  (food quality, excessive prices, others)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'sorry, though i am familiar with the basic notions of regulatory capture, can you clarify who the parties involved are and where the capture arises?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'and longer term consequences (centralizing power tends to accelerate and beget other problems)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'sure'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'the participants can be listed: legislators, regulators, lobby-ists (and associated corp), the citizen also playing role of consumer.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'my understanding of the dynamic is that money from market is reinvested into legislative control and at times, "revolving door" relationships with regulatory agencies.  these investments produce outsize returns to the originating corp by eliminating competition and allowing for control of the regulated segment of market'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'and a feedback loop develops'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'does that address your question?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'the inflamatory way to express my concern is that if the citizen is incapable of distinguishing between the standards set by a governing body and the influence of a marketting department claiming a product is acceptable, then that very same citizenry will over time prove to be incapable of managing the scenario of a strict regulateion (restarting line - screen unreadable here)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'then if we lack that capability, to be able to distinguish safe from unsafe product, then we (citizenry) will not effectly manage the situation of a strict regulatory agency under a government.  that is, the incentives in play will result in regulatory capture and eventual degradation where regulations have limited perhaps even negative results.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that is, a loss either way.  however, I believe a positive outcome can be found with the former by a process of empowering the citizen (as a consumer, but also a producer) by what you called "non-binding regulations" or enforced truth in labelling.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i'll rest there'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'relogging yet again'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'll wait til you're back'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'back'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ok, so you have raised what i understand are 2 points: 1) there is regulatory capture of the regulators by the lobbyists who act as proxies to the big industry players. Obviously over time this has negative impacts on consumers due to drop in quality, competition, etc.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'how would the lobbyists get to the regulators? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: '2) you have argued against my point of consumers being generally unable to distinguish between information of marketing department and reliable sources by saying that if this were true, then the consumers/citizen would similarly lack the capability over time be to regulate the regulator'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i'm not too sure if i got your argument correct on the 2nd point'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'regarding 2 - close - i am claiming one implies the other.  not that it is a false statemnet.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'ok'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'addressing your first point first.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so i'm will to waive whether it's true or not, or assume it is'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'how would the lobbyists control the regulators in 1)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'regulatory capture probably does exist in the current system. however regulatory is a phenomenon that cannot be easily eliminated, and it is a risk that has to be mitigated through strong checks and balances within the system itself, rather than giving up on the regulatory body. To me the problem is that lobbyists exist, and the fact that they can exert such influence on the regulator, the solution lies with solving that relationship rather than saying that the regulators powers should be limited'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'to Aimbot - lobbyist doesn't per se capture the regulator.  the dynamic as I have heard it is described is that the money movers donate to legislative campaigns and exec branch campaings and get "their men" installed to regulator positions.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'jobs are offerred to regulators on good behavior (typically back to the industry that the regulated)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'and why do "their men" continue to further their interests once they move to work for a regulatory body?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'to aimbot: and laws are written that are favorable to money makers at the expense of the common good'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'To Redryn - not interrupting you (not intending to - but I am breaking rules of order to respond to Aimbot)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'rakkicr, why do the people that work for the lobbyists continue to further their interests once they get attached to a regulatory body? they have no reason to'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: the term "revolving door" gets used to describe this.  Typically they have long term affiliations with each other.  For the united states look at the who regulates the current banking system - where they worked before - and where they return to after a government appointment.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'why don't you just get rid of the revolving door then.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'seems like ti doesnt benefit anyone except the lobbyists'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: there are attempts to mitigate this by (in some cases) prevent people from working government / industry jobs if they have been immediately working in prior years with the "other side"'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'There is literally no reason for anyone except lobbyists to support this practice.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'which imo is borderline corrupt'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'and at best conflict of interest'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: well - it benefits financially all the parties - legislator, executive, the lobbyist, the regulator (nice cushy jobs and rewards), the $ maker.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'on 2: your own argument that enforced-truth-in-labelling will then likewise be open to severe attack, because if the consumers are generally 'stupid', they will not be able to benefit from any enforced truth. (Remember regulation protects the vulnerable, not all of them). Secondly, I disagree that the implication is so strongly made that because citizens are unable to understand health risks that they are unable to choose who should lead them. For the former, it requires specialized knowledge as to that specific field, be it medicine, chemistry, nutrition, etc. For the latter, you just have to be able to choose someone qualified in the former. Ie: I can't understand how food additive XYZ has any impact on my body and what it does, that takes years of study to understand. However it is not hard at all for me to find a qualified scientist who already does understand it.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: agreed.  however, at least in the U.S. the citizenry is not motivate to vote representatives to put in the necessary legal restrictions.  So we have what looks like severe regulatory capture in a number industries.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'sounds like us is screwed hard and will probably never get unscrewed'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'no offence.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'Lastly, I disagree that your proposal solves any of the problems raised so far. It doesn't address consumer's lack of knowledge, it doesn't address the burden market failure will cause to society, nor does it solve regulatory capture - the big boys will just get all the products stamped as 'approved' while small kids will continue an uphill fight to explain to consumers why their product is not approved.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i rest.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: you did point out (and I think this true in the U.S.) that a great deal of regulation appears to still work.  I would agree with this.  Howeer, I wonder if it is maintained perhaps because rank and file in regulatory agencies still try to do their job, or perhaps it's societal captical that is enduring.  Should be noted that most corporations don't do well by killing their consumers - so the money makers tend to want to promote safety or at least the appearance thereof.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'Well, if the products are safe I don't see a problem?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'What's your complaint then?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: (1) appearance of safety.  At some point a system can change suddenly when a powerful party feels no need to care or even appear to care about others.  (2) economics - people get hurt because they can't start entrepreneurial companies - they can't take care of themselves - end up on the public dole - end up unhappy and get sick.  We don't get to enjoy the sweet and delicious products they would like to sell!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'Why can't they start entrepreneurial companies? Also, if the system changes suddenly people will realize and demand to know why the heck XXX company is screwing with them when its regulations were perfectly good before.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot: also I did pick the raw milk thing because though I don't see a need to advise people to drink raw milk - there is [strong?] evidence that some individuals experience substantial health benefits by increasing their intake of things that may have no benefit for the rest.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'FYI looks like Redryn logged.  So FYI - will respond to you Aimbot.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: '?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'no, you have not responded to my last round yet'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'So the apple pie is something I actually looked into where there legislation is improving.  U.S. has been experiencing constant recession and states want to increase revenue.  Many have found increased tax receipts by letting state residents start cottage food industries.  Basically mom and pop make food, you can eat it.  That's a success story.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn: oh - thought you had logged!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'But some industries get killed (small guys dissappear and you don't hear about them as they crushed by regulatory paperwork - they have no recourse, but their market share gets gobbled up).'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I haven't done a formal study on it - but anecdotally know of people who've been on sad side.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn you there?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'The banking one is a good example where the whole economy has been severely damaged.  It's a big one.  It's one where many monetary interests (I would think) have incentive to correct.  But that hasn't happened.  I don't know why - unless they currently profit well off of the same mechanisms.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'yea'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'It's also one where investigative reporting has been done.  Compare what has happened there with the S&L crisis 20 years ago.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'are these points addressed to me?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn: no - I triedfingering and it didn't see you on - thought you'd left'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you probably need detects'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Ah - my bad.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn: Per your paragraph 1: Agree that regulatory capture can be mitigated.  I propose limiting (not eliminating).  Reducing lobbyist influence and real campaing reform (such as taxpayer funded campaigns) would all be steps in the right direction.  Agree solution lies with solving these issues.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'correction follows'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn: Per your paragraph 1: Agree that regulatory capture can be mitigated.  Note that I propose limiting (not eliminating) regulatory agencies.  Reducing lobbyist influence and real campaing reform (such as taxpayer funded campaigns) would all be steps in the right direction.  Agree solution lies with solving these issues.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'in view of silence and agreement with my last points i claim the first ever victory on debate channel'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn bows deeply.
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'lol'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'still writing a response'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'and I didn't agree to a timer!!!!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: ';)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'dammit i thought it was going to be a historical record'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'However, i will concede you have made interesting and solid points.  Hope to have readable response in a bit.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'ok - in the interest of time i haven't figured out how to make this short.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'all parties on this channel this will be blaster wall of text'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so if you don't want a wall, you may want toggle channel'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'bring it , interesting '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'agreed, this channel has been too quiet recently'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'INCOMING!!!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Per your paragraph 1: Agree that regulatory capture can be mitigated.  Note that I propose limiting (not eliminating) regulatory agencies.  Reducing lobbyist influence and real campaing reform (such as taxpayer funded campaigns) would all be steps in the right direction.  Agree solution lies with solving these issues'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'That's not a very big wall rofl'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Per your paragraph 2: Are consumers incapable of recognizing basic cautionary labels ("CAUTION - non compliant") and avoiding truly stupid decisions?  If so, if, as you said [some/many] "citizens are unable to understand health risks" of any product marked non-compliant, by what means do such persons exercise the critical thinking needed to distinguish a real leader from a politician in bed with the right lobbyists?  How do you expect regulators with integrity or specialized knowledge to survive let alone prosper with such a politician in power?  I don't see how any mitigation comes in such scenario.  I suspect such a system is subject to decline via corruption with increasing risk of harm to many.  Do you have a path for mitigation in mind?  I don't conceive of a path that doesn't involve the common citizen taking responsibilty for and engaging with hard realities and communicating with friends and neighbors.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Do you disagree that labelling will protect *most* people?  Recognizing that you raised point that a subset are vulnerable to marketting influence (responded to in a later product).  If so, is that subset protected right now (not just for one product line - but across all products -  wide variety of food products which experts know to be unhealthy - cigarettes - etc).'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I maintain a strong reason for reducing regulatory power to enforced labelling for some market segments is that regulators then lose the power to control consumer dollars.  This mitigates cash flows that power the lobbyist effort to control regulators into strong arming the consumer into buying products from the lobbyist's handlers.  I do not think this alone will mitigate regulatory capture, but in concert efforts just might make for a stable system that guards public good.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I acknowledge that real humanity is characterized by how we take care of the vulnerable.  I believe our abilities to do so via government must be exercised with caution since history is rife with governing instutions doing very real harm, especially to the vulnerable.  I think there is danger in looking for perfection in protecting the vulnerable via government if we ignore the [unexpected?] consequences of the power we give to a select few.  This is not a comforting position because it implies limits and can feel callous.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i do not believe it's the citizen's job to use voting power to mitigate corruption. Strong anti-corruption agencies should play that role, and there are other developed governments with working systems on that. I do not think it is particularly relevant to dwell on this point and further, suffice to say we both agree corruption = bad.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'my bad - i should've said done with my turn'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'Regulation plays the role of protecting the market, and outright banning dangerous products will definitely protect the vast majority from those products. Leaving it to their choice leaves open the risk that they will make a bad choice, which is a greater risk than outright bans'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'It seems to be your primary motive is to starve the cash rich lobbyists and corporations of another avenue of monopoly power. I agree this is a noble aim, but conclude that this, in my opinion, is not the best path to be taking.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'that is all'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'I suppose you have the final right of reply'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'perhaps as an addendum: there are other ways to do that, eg outright banning lobbies, carveout exemptions for entrepreneurs, or greater aid by regulators to help startups with compliance.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'the -u(risk_of_bad_decisions*-u[bad_decision]) > -u(risk_of_lobbyists_screwing_with_us * -u[get_screwed]) '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'which is a fancy way of saying I'd rather have lobbyists capture regulations than eat poison'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn nods at Aimbot.
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'apply critical reasoning and opperate outside the economic and legal framework .. and apply critical reasoning .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'what the holy toilet roll does that mean tzad?!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'thank you for your responses.  I would like to ask more about your responses.  I have questions about details, if you have interest in elaborating.  As far as a final reply, I would mention that the issue of starving lobbyists isn't a sole issue.  On principle, I am generally opposed to "unecessary control" be accepted as a norm, and find that the most productive relationships involve association and action by choice of freewill.  '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'You mean that you want to add an external factor that none of us considered, which is the freedom of the people involved.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'ouch dun idle in aggie rooms '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'And that negative freedom equals negative utility, thereby pushing the second choice down'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'Tzad you may want to use gossip for that unless you're debating the economics of idling in aggro rooms.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'I don't want to suggest that regulatory behaviors lead to gross abuses of human rights, but I find common threads and have vague (not well articulated concerns) about people being habituated to "following mindlessly".'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'means wiki critical reasoning , if you need to carry a gun and you can't legally but feel it is required , do so , if you can buy/sell / work without tax , do so and wiki critical reasoning .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'of course freedom is desirable, but it has to be balanced against risks. Perhaps you're underestimating or i'm overestimating the risks in say the food manufacturing process. But accidents occur. You don't want to find remains of a garden snail in that soda pop you bought from the mom-and-pop shop down the neighborhood.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'lol Aimbot.  yes i definitely agree - history of terrible foods and the things that people got sacked by in the past.  ugh'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'was explaining a lag .. but OK .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'nope - i don't want snail.  but i want (perhaps it consider a basic human need for freedom) to be able to take that risk if i so choose.  i consider it fundamental - though by nature i really don't tend to take such risks.  those who do take such risks - in my opinion - need "legroom" to do so - or they seem to get really mixed up in even worse ways.  sort of like helicopter-parented kid off the college and free for the first time.  or that's my take on it.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you want to take that risk with every product you buy? :p'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'better a snail than Nutrasweet etc ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'personally i rather know for certainty that there should be no snail in my drink or someone is breaching some law'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'personal preference'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Redryn shrugs helplessly.
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'key word "if".  *if* i so choose.  in the particular case of raw milk, i do choose with clear unambiguous results that could be quantified.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'though i don't actually recommend to all.  life is full of risks - who am i to tell someone else how to engage with those risks to have a fullfilling and rich life?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'raw milk is one small class of products'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'what about general hygiene standards that are currently regulated?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'true.  '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'they cover every food production process'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'take responsability for your personal foodchain would be a start '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'you are talking about the whole production line for food factory, so to speak'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'because if it's not mandatory, then as cost cutting goes in every big firm is going to cut corners there'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that was a question'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and it'll just become a de facto standard'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'interesting point.  how do you explain super-expensive organic food then?  clearly consumers will pay for a label.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'it was an example, i was speaking about all the relevant regulations in the food industry, which includes things like what ingredients you can use, disclosure rules, processes, etc'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'Granting freedom to one group of people(the people that like raw milk) creates risk for another group of people (the people that cannot stand raw milk, which is most people).'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'sure. Companies then get to charge a premium what they are basically forced to absorb on their own cost now.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'I sincerely doubt that the u(freedom*rawmilklovers) >= u(risk*rawmilkhaters)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'personally , I work in a really Dirty environment and I cook at work everyday .. I don't get sick through application of food choices and food prep regeme with good personal hygene '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Aimbot: 'That is why I feel your proposal crates negative utility compared to the existing system.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Aimbot - in this case it turns out not to be a matter of like, but of health'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'there are a number of people who make such a claim - i recall thinking they were goofy until i tried.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I cook from raw ingreadients usually bout farm fresh from small growers and always apply heat or washing and use iso propal alchol had wash for hands and utensils .. I work at a dump .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Aim is offline . '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'there is interesting evolution in our (scientific) understanding of a healthy body relationship with microorganisms that populate our environment.  overly hygenic environments can (in some cases) produce severe negative effects.  that is, it seems most microorganisms are relatively benign, a good number are positive/beneficial, and then there are the bad ones.  for some people, taking a "risk" on a set of microorganisms may be necessary to get the good ones, because we have limited understanding and control of such systems.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so that's the personal angle on this debate for me.  i do in fact think raw milk has potential for danger, but heavy handed regulatory approach - well you know we already debated this'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'the environ I work in is overly unhygenic .. tbh I am a litmus test for my own methods -which work well imo '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I get bugs from other ppl not the food cahin or environment  , Steve has an unreported flu and I use the excavator after him and I get his flu .. that kind of stuff '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'how do characterize anti-corruption efforts?  what gets the "right" people into power to exercise that?  earlier you mentioned citizen's role with the vote isn't the mechanism for this.  you're not suggesting divorcing the vote from who wields that power?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I reject group power , where I need to I break regulations and laws  I'm really not interested in the lowest comon denominator atm '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'You don't mind if I ask for elaboration on your prior responses?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the citizens don't vote in the anti-corruption officials'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'sure '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you can look at the anti-corruption systems of singapore or hongkong'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'they were deemed quite radical at the time but are effective'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so how do you get rule of law and anti-corruption?  what keeps a system from devolving into say, something like Roman govmt or examples of monarchies and oligarchies about?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the anti-corruption agency acts as a third party'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'not clear to me how a slimbag holding power will support anti-corruption.  wow that sounds cynical - but corruption makes money and good ways of making money have to empower the right people.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'http://www.icac.org.hk/en/about_icac/bh/'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'would say the same .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so who populates the roster of that agency so it is not itself corrupted?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'try visiting the link, i'm sure if you are interested you can find the information with some research'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'i don't recall offhand all the mechanisms they have'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'but whatever they did worked'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'yeah - but i have to wonder if what worked if the folks with power realized value to their powerbase / quality of life - or were just generous folks - acknowledging the benefit of rule by law.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'didn't the HK Gov just arrest key protestors to try breaking up demonstratons ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'political suppression and corruption are different things'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'OK Red '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'can't comment on that either, i'm not that familiar with the context'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'the whole problem with mafia types in government roles is that they could care less about the harm the wreck.  i can imagine a mafia having it's own anti-corruption "internal affairs" to ensure internal loyalty - but someone has to oversee that department, and such an org isn't exactly going to respond to anything other than a money trail in the end anyways.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'all large organised crime networks have internal affairs  systems , not departments .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'lol'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'well we are arguing what an optimal system is'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'not whether the system can be fixed'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'establishing an anti-corruption system is as difficult as getting them to give up money-making systems :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'hm?  i am curious what such a system is.  of course right now the conflicts of interest are plain as day and we (U.S.) appear to be stagnant - though there may be good goings on that I'm just not familiar with.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'employ monks Red ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'Redryn so how do you see these issues being mitigated - does any path come to mind?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'assuming you have the political will and power to actually effect changes,'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'lets try unionism .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you just need an independent commission that oversees anti-corruption efforts'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'and they need to be granted sufficient powers to do their job'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'install the right minded people at the top, and let them select their employees'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so... how do you get to the "assuming" part?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if you don't have the political will nothing you want to do will work.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you're screwed'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that's part of why i would like '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'sorry, you won't get what you would like either'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'see what i said, you're screwed :p'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'you get nothing :p'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'power retained by the citizenry whereever feasible (as a consumer, etc) because once power centralizes... people lose power to influence and the interest to do so.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'the entire debate is premised on the assumption there's a magical power to get the proposals in place'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'if your central power is already corrupt, it's never going to let that power become decentralized'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Redryn: 'your best bet is anarchy'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i see that as feedback loop though.  i think depending on regulators makes people "soft" about taking care of themselves.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Red .. let the heard be run by .. run ur own game .. is my best answer . '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Herd*'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'and I should emphasize I'm not trying to pick on regulators - a lot of good people have done really good things over the years.  but I think there are "knock-on" effects that can make people disempowered in many spheres of life.  I am of the impression this has to be addressed before people become active about their well being and the common good.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'imo Rakk you have too higher opinion of 95% of the population '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'well, I want to have a high opinion.  it does have to be earned though.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'feed em and give em tittytainment and they are relatively happy touching thier toes while the other 5%  employs KY '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'take global climate change.  the impacts of changing the atmosphere and radiation balance of the planet have been pretty well understood to be significant (though exact consequence are poorly understood even now), yet most of U.S. until recently was of the opinino that quality scientists were pulling this out of the behinds [to get research funding?]'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'anyway - that was not one of our better moments in terms of engaging with hard realities.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'lol'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: '5% eh?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Doomsday Prepper ?  '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'you should be .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'lol.  why?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'you don't know something do you?!?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: '95% of stats are 99% pulled out of the aftermath of the KY .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'something something 1%'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'is nice to feel safe .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'move along folks. nothing to see here.  keep moving.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'they know me .. I'm part of the grafitti .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Snowangel Tzadkiel Looks for the next Jesus Christ and cringes at the moneylenders .. cause they are armed now ..  :P I joke 
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'trying to stir the channel back into a frenzy, eh?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'nah I enjoyed your and Red's banter  , but I think practical application is key .  to hark on olden time , think global act local  .. I look at the masses now .. and .. well  .. you hope ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'introducing religion into debate is like saying "Nazi" on Goss  only the strong threads survive .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that makes good sense.  i'm not sure any positive move doesn't have to stabe that way'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'is very impressive t have a conceptual idea of "how the world works " that involves the wider issues  but  .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'where are those .. leading to?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I was hoping to lead you to a conclusion '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'what?  what is this?  you're not expecting to figure something out for myself?  are you?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I did make critical reasoning a key of me barging in  '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'correction "you're not expecting *me* to figure out..."'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I love hippy sayings .. "Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? " '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'yep - action count'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I have little invested in either , I just look after myself mostly , I have Friends on Aard I go extra lengths for .. is my social contribution '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i am missing something.  have little invested in either?  either waht?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'economic or social , my job skills are more suited to post apocalypse , or single living '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I jest :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I do cultivate relationships on Aard  :) is a wonderful filter for the most part :)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i wonder why?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'takes a special kind of person to play old time muds?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'and is a Long game , delayment of gratification , requires a lil intellegence , lol I slipped through , and ppl with antisocial presonality disorders have somewhere comfortable to practice skills .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'hehe'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'show me any bar that I can share a cuddle and be intellectually stimulated and say what ever I want  no matter the content (almost) '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'and, accessible by Wifi while in said snuggle.  livin the dream!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I was once chann banned for a year .. so you still have to watch what you say .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that's impressive.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'impresive is that I started out a hatefiled lil Kitten , now married to a Beutiful Wolfie and have a host of dear friends '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'oh that's cool.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that didn't all happen on Aard now - I would assume'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I have a family now too .. I'm the great Aunt to some .. sister to others Waterbrother and daughter to my father her e:)'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'yeah :) Aard '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'that's nice - richer life with friends and fam'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'I don't connect with ppl  irl  .. I thought I was a sociopath  but I'm not or healed , through Aard ! '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'some ppl just may connect better with text.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'is something I can turn of on baad days or bad times . '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'where does your name come from ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'from another mud - where i had to make up a name, because i couldn't use my favorite - BleepBloop'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'you?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'sorry it's not more exotic  :('
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Tzadkiel is an Archangel .. Jewish mysticism  of compassion and mercy  - Familiar with Kabbalah ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'c'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'cool.  though no real familiarity'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'are xtian or agnostic ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'is there "n/a" option?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'lol'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'i choose not to accept your reality and substitute my own.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'rofl'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: '.. is called aethiest .. you were not familiar with tha term ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'nope.  not that one either.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'so, not agnostic'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Lach reality is subjective , have an acid tab and tell me the snakes are real . :P'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'but i wouldn't be considered a xtian.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'nothing wrong with athieism. i'd be one if i wasn't a god.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'one of the modern choose ur own religions like  Crowlianity or modern Wicca ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'no.  none of those.  *downcast*  *averts gaze downward*   i guess i am a nothing.  why wait a sec!  I am a Nothing!  hm.  doesn't sound right.  anyway not atheist, not agnostic.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'or more philisophical , humanism ?  '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'nihilist?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'help me out here.  what are those?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'Wiki when you are ready , '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'k'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'nope - not a nihilist.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'so no rites or rituals  then ? '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'not a humanist according to wikipedia'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'i brush my teeth!  does that count?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Lactating Lachdanan: 'labels are overrated anyway'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'interestingly enough it does as dogmatic religion surplants poor familial context on how to live . '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Rakkicr: 'not following you there Tzad'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'dogmatic religion reminds the plebs how to live ..all the big religions have the same key elements .. like not breeding with ur brother .. '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Snowangel Tzadkiel: 'is the basis of all social engineering '
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'bloody americans have exported black friday to the UK'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'you can have it'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it's about as welcome as aids'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'you can have that too'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'using the normal big-brother logic, they should make gay sex illegal to prevent aids'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Gurneyhallek: 'then they would just create a another virus for population control'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'it doesn't control population, if you wanted to do that, you'd have something that nukes fertility'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Ontuct: 'is aids still a 'gay' disease?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Confounded CeriQ: 'Only if you're a truther.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'aids is a disease that can affect anyone, but has the highest growth rates among gay men'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'by some clear margin'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'hence it is branded a disease of gays'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'I DEMAND A SANDWICH!'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): You launch your weapons at GreyLeaves, knocking him through the wall!
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'any women on duty? grey needs a sammish'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Fi-Bot Fiain: 'Gru, go make him a sandwich.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Legendary Gruagach: 'toasted and melty, i assume?'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Yes.'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Where me sammich hidden, aye? Harr harr harr'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'Where can I fight the sammich kingM'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) GreyLeaves: 'king?*'
T3/r7/2014-11-28.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate): Exiled To Aphelion . o O ( until it burns down? )
T3/r7/2014-11-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Ferguson Missouri, there were inadequate police to protect firefighters trying to put out buildings that had been the target of arson attacks. There were inadequate police to protect businesses from looting, and yet the very moment the got wind that a group of volunteers made up of former police, firefighters, and army veterans that had organised to run security for a group of businesses, they sent SNIPER teams to go occupy the rooftops opposite them and tried to force them to leave'
T3/r7/2014-11-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'Sam Andrews, one of the volunteers, immediately called Unified Command to find out why snipers had taken up an aggressive position against them. According to Andrews, local police, a large portion of which have been supportive of the Oath Keepers, were completely unaware of the feds movements. Shortly after, a St. Louis County police officer appeared on scene and began telling Andrews that business owners wanted them off their roofs.After calling the store owners, Andrews and his team quickly confirmed that no such request was ever made. That is when the officer admitted that his chief was being pressured by the feds to keep Oath Keepers from protecting buildings.'
T3/r7/2014-11-30.txt.gz:{chan ch=debate}(Debate) Tigernuts: 'The feds are terrorists! Who knew?'